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I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

johnnygoesdigital

New member
FredBGG-

Thanks for the link, there seems to be more of a trend now for incorporating film in shoots. There's a certain quality to film that digital can never match. A very useful medium indeed!
 
Chris,
You got a great back, so did Sheldon(he bought mine!) I sold the Aptus 22 Mamiya mount because I was switching to the Hassy camera platform and got a P30+ with H1. Now I just need to get the H4x... It's been great, especially the flexibility of the higher ISO stuff when needed. The P30+ back shoots full res at higher ISO's. Being able to shoot at 400-800 with little to no noise is great for outdoor portrait sessions when the sun heads down. It's just a lot more flexible that way, than the Leaf backs. I'm still waiting for one of the big 3 to release a back with a Dalsa sensor with microlenses. Then you'd get the best of both worlds. The advantages of a Dalsa sensor and the ability to shoot at higher ISO's. Plus full res files all the time. I never really understood the "advantage" mentality of the P+ backs that bring down the resolution to 25% of what the back can normally do. I realize it's better than not being able to shoot at high ISO at all. But it's basically just lessening a huge negative. Making the best of a bad situation. If you're paying 45k for a back that can shoot at 80 MP and only 20MP at higher ISO, that's not really getting your money's worth in my opinion. It seems that Dalsa does have a sensor that would be perfect. I'm open to being corrected if I'm wrong. Can someone PLEASE put this or an updated version in your digital back?!!!

FTF6080C 48 MP Color CCD - Product Detail - Teledyne DALSA

Cheers,
Josh
 

ondebanks

Member
Chris, welcome to the Mamiya Leaf family!
just a note to say that the P25+ and the Aptus 22 use two totally different sensors from 2 different manufacturers.

One of the advantages of the Dalsa sensor (Aptus 22) is the faster capture rate, much faster especially if you shoot tethered. Other (arguable) advantages are better colour, better sharpness and better resistance to colour cast (more relevant for tech cameras)
Yair,

They've the same pixel size, same sensor size (+/- 1 mm), same lack of AA filter, and can be used on the same body with the same lenses...so...I'm genuinely curious: how does the Aptus deliver "better sharpness"?

In the same vein, since neither sensor uses microlenses, why does the Aptus deliver "better resistance to colour cast" on tech cameras?

Ray
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Aptus is Dalsa and P25+ is Kodak. They are different sensors and act different. Kind of like a Kodachrome vs a Extachrome they have different qualities to them
 

ondebanks

Member
Chris, welcome to the fold.

Yup, Mr. Sun doesn't bless us with his presence very much over here in Ireland either!

To answer your question, MFD has not moved on much in ISO terms since 2004 - no, actually, since about 1998 - because at base ISO, the backs are already operating at the (high) noise floor that the sensor permits.

Yes, readout noise specs have fallen somewhat as MFD pixel "generations" have moved from 12 microns, to 9 microns, to 7.2/6.8 microns, to 6 microns.

But when you normalize the readnoise to a common area, say that of a 9 micron pixel or a 6 micron pixel or just 1 square micron, they all hover stubbornly at around the same level! In fact, some of the newer sensors come out marginally worse than some of the older ones!

Pixel binning, in some of the Phase One backs (the ones with recent Dalsa sensors), gets around this; it allows a quadrupling of acceptable ISO by a quartering of readnoise per unit area. Of course, there's also a quartering of net pixel count.

Ray
 

ondebanks

Member
Aptus is Dalsa and P25+ is Kodak. They are different sensors and act different. Kind of like a Kodachrome vs a Extachrome they have different qualities to them
Yes, I've no problem with their colour differences. But their other similar properties do not explain (to me) a difference in either sharpness, or propensity for colour casts when viewcam lenses are shifted. I hope that Yair can address this, since he knows the Aptus tech inside out.

Ray
 

Chris Giles

New member
I've Kodak on my back, Creo Leaf (Is that Dalsa or Kodak)?

Ok guys, as promised I just finished a shoot.

Before I go into example images. I do a lot of weddings and also Actors headshots. The Aptus back was sought to improve shooting output over my much loved 1Ds3.

After todays shoot I'm left in two minds. I'm very happy with the IQ although my light meter cannot seem to be trusted. What the Sekonic L358 says is correct (and is correct on my 1Ds3) appears in certain situations to be 1-2 stops under on my Aptus 22. This needs further investigation as it may be down to bad methodology.

I'm not happy with the focus speed and accuracy. It's rubbish to the point I'll be bold enough to ask how they can make a camera this way (sorry). I think my H1 may be better but don't have a digital back to rapidly fire off a load of shots. However overall sharpness on the image is improved but I like to have my focal point on the eye. This will be the only reason I don't keep it and I might just swan back to the H1, stick an Aptus back on that and have done with it.

Minimum focal distance of the 150 3.5 is too long, need to either get the 110 LS or the 150 2.8, I think the 110 is the best choice but this needs more looking into. I don't know if it's the back or the lens but the 85L doesn't seem to render as well as the 150 3.5 does, even wide open.

Anyway, here's the resulting shots, apart from White Balance it is pretty much as they are from the cameras, processed in Lightroom.

Light setup with a Sekonic L-358, White Balance set with a Colorite Passport.
Systems used: Mamiya AFDIII + Leaf Aptus 22 + 150mm 3.5 and a Canon 1Ds3 + 85L II







 

Shashin

Well-known member
Minimum focal distance of the 150 3.5 is too long, need to either get the 110 LS or the 150 2.8, I think the 110 is the best choice but this needs more looking into. I don't know if it's the back or the lens but the 85L doesn't seem to render as well as the 150 3.5 does, even wide open.
Chris, I shoot with a Pentax 645D. I have found the best solution was the Pentax 120mm Macro, not only is it one of the Pentax 645 lenses Pentax made at any distance, but minimum focus distance is not an issue--I can't see myself taking portraits at at more than 1:1. I would imagine a Mamiya 120 Macro would be as good.

The rendering is to do with the sensor size as much as anything else.
 

yaya

Active member
Yes, I've no problem with their colour differences. But their other similar properties do not explain (to me) a difference in either sharpness, or propensity for colour casts when viewcam lenses are shifted. I hope that Yair can address this, since he knows the Aptus tech inside out.

Ray
9µ vs 9µ but some of those microns on the Kodak are taken by over-spill "gutters" that are not part of the active/ sensitive area. These gaps also affect the uniformity (RGB) across the image, sharpness and falloff towards the edges etc.

Shoot an LCC frame with both sensors with the same lens and compare the RGB readings. Add a bit of shift with a wide-angle lens and the differences become more obvious. This is also compounded by the fact that the pixels on the Kodak are deeper with higher "walls" so light coming in an angle gets swollen instead of hitting an active area

Some say that the RGB filters on the 22MP Dalsa are also better than on the Kodak, which contribute to better colour and less "garbage" in the Blue channel...

Same design differences are true for 7.2µ vs 6.8µ and as far as I can tell also for 6µ Vs 6µ. Kodak hasn't made a large-area 5.2µ sensor so I cannot comment on that one

You keep blowing the Kodak trumpet but in reality image quality is made out of more than just on-paper read noise and there are some people who shoot subjects in studios or in daylight you know....

Yair
 

Chris Giles

New member
Yair, where can I go to try out the 110 LS and 2.8 D?
Or to borrow for a day to see what suits me best in the studio?

Thanks!
Chris
 

yaya

Active member
Yair, where can I go to try out the 110 LS and 2.8 D?
Or to borrow for a day to see what suits me best in the studio?

Thanks!
Chris
The 110mm LS won't work on your AFDIII, you'll need a 645DF for that one....

Contact any of our London dealers either Peartree or Calumet they should have the 150mm/ 2.8 in rental/ demo

BR

Yair
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
I like the skin tones of the Dalsa, but nothing post can't fix. As far as resolution from these photos shows, the 1Ds is just fine, and perfectly capable if not printing wall size posters.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Hmmm, hate to say it out loud ... but everything you have brought up is completely or partially solved with a H4D/40 ... which I have used to shoot wedding stuff with in gloomy Michigan's Lake effect, English like environment ... and portrait/fashion/commercial in studio with strobes.

Extraordinary full resolution ISO 800, and excellent 1600 without pixel binning.

True Focus APL effectively eliminating the need for AF points all over the viewfinder, even the ability to accurately focus at the far edge of the frame and recompose.

HC100/2.2 AF lens with an equivalent 130mm FOV making it perfect for head shots like those shown ... using a small, agile and brilliant lens.

Ability to set mirror delay for hand-held work, that combined with leaf shutters in all lenses, improves use of lower shutter speeds in low light.

Just sayin' :)

Now running for cover ...;)

-Marc
 

FredBGG

Not Available
Hmmm, hate to say it out loud ... but everything you have brought up is completely or partially solved with a H4D/40 ... which I have used to shoot wedding stuff with in gloomy Michigan's Lake effect, English like environment ... and portrait/fashion/commercial in studio with strobes.

Extraordinary full resolution ISO 800, and excellent 1600 without pixel binning.

True Focus APL effectively eliminating the need for AF points all over the viewfinder, even the ability to accurately focus at the far edge of the frame and recompose.

HC100/2.2 AF lens with an equivalent 130mm FOV making it perfect for head shots like those shown ... using a small, agile and brilliant lens.

Ability to set mirror delay for hand-held work, that combined with leaf shutters in all lenses, improves use of lower shutter speeds in low light.

Just sayin' :)

Now running for cover ...;)

-Marc
Take cover!

True Focus has it's limits. It only really helps with wider lenses, Hasselblad states this too.

"Absolute Position Lock" only accounts for angular movements. It does not
account for the photographer moving forward or backwards

Leaf shutter is limited to 1/800th and you can only use hasselblad lenses.
When the sun comes out you can pretty much forget shooting wide open.

Small sensor 33x44mm does not give you the same effect and shallow depth of field as bigger sensors do. You are cropping away much of the format.
Limits wide angle coverage too.


NO FILM SUPPORT....

I also don't like the Hasselblad viewfinder.

I'm no absolute fan of the Phase One either.

Both could use some improvement.. like as many focusing points as an entry level canon or nikon.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Take cover!

True Focus has it's limits. It only really helps with wider lenses, Hasselblad states this too.

"Absolute Position Lock" only accounts for angular movements. It does not
account for the photographer moving forward or backwards

Leaf shutter is limited to 1/800th and you can only use hasselblad lenses.
When the sun comes out you can pretty much forget shooting wide open.

Small sensor 33x44mm does not give you the same effect and shallow depth of field as bigger sensors do. You are cropping away much of the format.
Limits wide angle coverage too.


NO FILM SUPPORT....

I also don't like the Hasselblad viewfinder.

I'm no absolute fan of the Phase One either.

Both could use some improvement.. like as many focusing points as an entry level canon or nikon.
Well, that isn't exactly what Hasselblad says about the use of True Focus. Proximity to subject and how far off-center the worse the problem becomes ... naturally, wide angle lenses with wide FOV exhibit this more than longer focal lengths ... but it still works for faster max aperture lenses like the 100/2.2 when the subject is close and more off to the side.

Of course it doesn't work if you are moving back or forth ... either do multiple focus points if recomposing, you have to re-focus just like with TF.

Yes the shutter is limited to 1/800, but all the lenses from 28mm to 300mm have a sync speed of 1/800th, not 1/125th and in the "English" applications the OP mentioned 1/800th doesn't seem to be the issue ... higher ISOs are.

The difference between a 1.1X and 1.3X sensor in terms of DOF is negligible ...the 100/2.2 shot close wide open the DOF is wafer thin on either 1.1X and 1.3X camera. Most of the higher ISO performing (1600) sensors are 1.3X

Liking the viewfinder or not is subjective. At least you can use a WLF if you want.

What is film? :)

-Marc
 

Shashin

Well-known member
You keep blowing the Kodak trumpet but in reality image quality is made out of more than just on-paper read noise and there are some people who shoot subjects in studios or in daylight you know....

Yair
Wow. That was really nice. I know Ray and he is interested. But you remind me why I really value dealers...
 
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