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Old 20th January 2012   #1
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Fuji XS-1

It looks like the XS-1 will be available from the end of February 2012 with 2/3 sensor like the X10. Main features are that it's a whole lot bigger than the X10 with a massive zoom from 24-624mm. Initial pre-order prices in the UK are from £699 down to £629,

Hands on pre-view from the Fuji-Guys at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq2tUftH-pY

It is essentially a very well built bridge camera with the typical X series build quality and if image quality is anything near as good as the X10 it will sell!

I have always had a soft spot for the 2/3 sensor having experience of both the Leica D2 and Panasonic LC-1. This new Fuji XS-1 addresses just about every item on the D2 wish list when it was eventually discontinued! Neither Leica or Panasonic took up the challenge, probably because 4/3 sensor cameras were already in development.

Sorry Brian!
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Old 20th January 2012   #2
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Re: Fuji XS-1

Its a welcome to see such a design. It took me a while to find max apertures
f2.8 - f5.6 of the lens. Price is fairly keen. To reproduce this sort of setup with an low end APS-C Nikon or Canon, the body lens combo may be somewhat more?

I checked the manual but could not find where there is any indication of focal length in use in the EVF. I would think it handy to know!
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Old 21st January 2012   #3
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Re: Fuji XS-1

Looked at this camera as well and must say I am impressed by what I have seen so far.

Maybe this is really one of the first high end solutions to replace a medium to semi pro APSC-DSLR setup ? If so I could think of getting use for it ....
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Old 21st January 2012   #4
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Re: Fuji XS-1

A bit more info here: THE STORY | FUJIFILM X-S1

This also includes some images taken by a veteran professional landscape and wildlife photographer. As he is approaching his eighth decade, my guess he is like many of us trying to reduce the weight and bulk of his gear for travelling.

Incidentally he claims that images from this camera are capable of printing to A1 size for viewing at one metre. Quite a claim, but then Fujifilm are paying him so a few caveats required I suspect.

It is an interesting camera and one that separates itself from the usual bridge type by having a larger sensor, substantial body and lens barrel with a nice smooth manual zoom. Most seem to have awful electronic zooms that always stop at the wrong focal length!

I wish they were available now in time for my trip to South Africa next week!
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Old 21st January 2012   #5
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Re: Fuji XS-1

Dave,

you know, the older you get the more lazy .... or should we say wise?

I am actually getting a bit tired of all these DSLR based systems where new cameras with new sensors are coming in a 1-2 year frequency, requiring in most cases also new lenses, as the sensor requires much better glass. And hey, then you invest in say a 2.8/300 from whatever vendor and before you can really use it, it is replace by a new version, which does exactly well what you were missing in the previous version.

Reducing oneself to just APSC DSLR already makes lens choices a bit easier and cheaper. But never the less it is still a very expensive 2 year replacement cycle.

With a camera like the XS1 which costs well below €1000.- it is pretty easy to change every year or so to the latest model and have the latest and greatest. Does one really need this? Well everybody has to decide separately.

Anyway the weakest point of all those "bridge" cameras so far was IMHO the far end of tele, where all of them started really to get soft. If the XS1 holds up here to semi pro IQ, then a big part of the puzzle is solved (at least for me).

And yes, I admit that I also want (need) to reduce weight of my equipment, not only money invested in it.
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Old 21st January 2012   #6
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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Dave,

you know, the older you get the more lazy .... or should we say wise?

I am actually getting a bit tired of all these DSLR based systems where new cameras with new sensors are coming in a 1-2 year frequency, requiring in most cases also new lenses, as the sensor requires much better glass. And hey, then you invest in say a 2.8/300 from whatever vendor and before you can really use it, it is replace by a new version, which does exactly well what you were missing in the previous version.

Reducing oneself to just APSC DSLR already makes lens choices a bit easier and cheaper. But never the less it is still a very expensive 2 year replacement cycle.

With a camera like the XS1 which costs well below €1000.- it is pretty easy to change every year or so to the latest model and have the latest and greatest. Does one really need this? Well everybody has to decide separately.

Anyway the weakest point of all those "bridge" cameras so far was IMHO the far end of tele, where all of them started really to get soft. If the XS1 holds up here to semi pro IQ, then a big part of the puzzle is solved (at least for me).

And yes, I admit that I also want (need) to reduce weight of my equipment, not only money invested in it.
The cycle is expensive but only if you participate in it- there's no real reason why anyone should upgrade with the same frequency of the capitalist companies. It seems to me you are buying almost every single camera that comes out. Nikon 1, X10, now looking at this… looking at the cameras you have bought in the not distant past - same deal. There will always be something better coming out and there will always be a camera that does better than the other within a niche.

I am honestly not sure having gone Nikon 1 and apparently being so overwhelmingly happy on it meeting your needs why you are looking for anything else that has "New" in it.

And you are buying the new Olympus digital OMD too, am I right?

All this does is hurt your wallet and your photography. Same goes for me or anyone else.

- Raist
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Old 21st January 2012   #7
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Re: Fuji XS-1

Hmmm
I think that the problem with this camera is here:
Size of the XS1 compared to A35

In fact, it's pretty much the same size as an A77 - I'm sure that they've done their best with the zoom - and I'm also rather partial to the 2/3 sensor compromise (E10 also had it)

. . But if you can have something with a much much bigger and better sensor which is much smaller (and you can easily put on the Excellent tamron 27-270 zoom if you want a super zoom range).

. . . or else, you could have a NEX7:

Fuji X1s compared to NEX7
If you put the Tamron 18-200 zoom on it, it'll also be slightly shorter than the Fuji.
It will also be more than 200 gms lighter than the Fuji
and if you crop your Sony Image you'll easily have the zoom range of the Fuji!

So, I'm all for bridge cameras in principle but if the body is going to be the same size as a Canon 60D, then i don't really see the point.

all the best
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Old 21st January 2012   #8
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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Hmmm
I think that the problem with this camera is here:
Size of the XS1 compared to A35

In fact, it's pretty much the same size as an A77 - I'm sure that they've done their best with the zoom - and I'm also rather partial to the 2/3 sensor compromise (E10 also had it)

. . But if you can have something with a much much bigger and better sensor which is much smaller (and you can easily put on the Excellent tamron 27-270 zoom if you want a super zoom range).
But that's not the same range. Isn't that 40.5mm to 405mm? That falls way short of the Fuji wide and tele. Also, at what price?

Quote:
. . . or else, you could have a NEX7:
But again, at what price? And what lens? And what if some find the Nex7 size too small for the lenses?

Quote:
Fuji X1s compared to NEX7
If you put the Tamron 18-200 zoom on it, it'll also be slightly shorter than the Fuji.
It will also be more than 200 gms lighter than the Fuji
and if you crop your Sony Image you'll easily have the zoom range of the Fuji!
The range of that is 18*1.5-200*1.5 = 27m - 300mm. You can't have the 24mm the Fuji has at wide, and if you crop to get the same 2x factor you end up with a 6 megapixel image. Sure, it's an option, but you could say the Fuji crops a notch and still have more range. And the price?

Quote:
So, I'm all for bridge cameras in principle but if the body is going to be the same size as a Canon 60D, then i don't really see the point.

all the best
Well the range of the Fuji is still wider and most importantly - the price :-)

How much is Nex-7 + adapter + 18-200? From amazon in USD that's:

adapter is $349.96 + Nex -7 is $1,199 (if you can get one at all right now), tamron 18-200 is $289 = total of $1837! yes, the Nex-7 better be better! :-)

With Sony A77: $1399.99 + $289 lens = $1688(!)

Fuji XS1 is at least half the price of any of those options and has more range. And no worries on dust on sensor ever.

Of course it also has the exclusive patented Fuji EXR X10 ORBsTM bringing a new meaning to sparkles in your photography :-)

- Raist

Update: Oops, you had mentioned the A35, not the A77 for comparison.

The A35 is $699. The tamron $289 so that's $989. Ok that is certainly within striking distance of the XS1, the Tamron being a stop slower. It would be interesting to see which of the two is the better lens.
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Old 21st January 2012   #9
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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The cycle is expensive but only if you participate in it- there's no real reason why anyone should upgrade with the same frequency of the capitalist companies. It seems to me you are buying almost every single camera that comes out. Nikon 1, X10, now looking at this… looking at the cameras you have bought in the not distant past - same deal. There will always be something better coming out and there will always be a camera that does better than the other within a niche.

I am honestly not sure having gone Nikon 1 and apparently being so overwhelmingly happy on it meeting your needs why you are looking for anything else that has "New" in it.

And you are buying the new Olympus digital OMD too, am I right?

All this does is hurt your wallet and your photography. Same goes for me or anyone else.

- Raist
Well, you are right - but I still think that a camera like the XS1 could be a nice replacement for a complete APSC sized DSLR setup. I doubt that any Tamron or Sigma or what else zoom would be able to come close to the quality of the Fuji lens specifically designed for this sensor. I know it is actually a bridge camera, but it could be the first of this type of camera really coming up to high quality requirements.

Of course need to see more samples and results.

Peter

PS1: and I still did not order one

PS2: still love the Nikon V1 and especially the 10 and 30-110 lenses for what it is - a small, yet very capable system for general everyday use. But would I take it as the only camera (system) for a game drive trip to Africa? Pretty sure NOT. I would expand my current Nikon DSLR lineup with some lenses, especially long telephoto zoom - but this would be pretty expensive (for maybe just 1 trip in the next years) and also pretty much heavier to carry than a camera like the XS1. Would the XS1 hold up against say a Nikon D7000 with decent lenses? I cannot say, but I am waiting again for more test results.

PS3: I owned some bridge cameras in the past - Panasonic, Olympus I can remember - but what they suffered IMHO was the EVF as well as the IQ at long tele ranges. The EVF is for sure improved in the XS1, how good the long tele is needs to be seen.
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Old 21st January 2012   #10
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Re: Fuji XS-1

I don't know. It's certainly your cash and money but you sure seem to be buying almost anything with "new" on it. I can't even begin to imagine why did you get the X10 having all the cameras you already have, much less talk about this one.

- Raist

PS: Can it be safely predicted you are getting the new-to-be-released Olympus OMD too?
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Old 21st January 2012   #11
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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I don't know. It's certainly your cash and money but you sure seem to be buying almost anything with "new" on it. I can't even begin to imagine why did you get the X10 having all the cameras you already have, much less talk about this one.

- Raist

PS: Can it be safely predicted you are getting the new-to-be-released Olympus OMD too?
I do not understand why you are bringing this discussion always into that direction. I am interested in a camera like the XS1 because I see it as a great tool once it really can deliver like on spec sheet. Will I buy it then is still to be seen. But why would I discuss something if I am not interested?

I meanwhile (like lot of others) got rid of many of my cameras and so I am actually looking for a all in one high end P&S. The X10 just rings all the bells in that area for me.

So what is wrong?
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Old 21st January 2012   #12
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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I do not understand why you are bringing this discussion always into that direction. I am interested in a camera like the XS1 because I see it as a great tool once it really can deliver like on spec sheet. Will I buy it then is still to be seen. But why would I discuss something if I am not interested?
I don't know. Not sure what you mean. If you mean why talk about this, there's a few reasons. You write public reasons why the latest and greatest system works for your needs, you seem to lash out at times at anyone who dares mention anything that doesn't go with the latest and greatest system. It's obvious you purchase a lot of systems that are new, and latest. Given all that, it sure invites the question.

That said, enjoy your XS1 if you get it and the OMD which I would imagine you will surely get.

- Raist



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Old 22nd January 2012   #13
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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I don't know. Not sure what you mean. If you mean why talk about this, there's a few reasons. You write public reasons why the latest and greatest system works for your needs, you seem to lash out at times at anyone who dares mention anything that doesn't go with the latest and greatest system. It's obvious you purchase a lot of systems that are new, and latest. Given all that, it sure invites the question.

That said, enjoy your XS1 if you get it and the OMD which I would imagine you will surely get.

- Raist



- Raist
Well, I am not much different to a number of people in this forum who are constantly looking for new and improved gear. Whenever one pulls the rigger then and buy is for sure an individual decision. In that regards I already improved (pulling the trigger much less)
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Old 22nd January 2012   #14
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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Hmmm
I think that the problem with this camera is here:
Size of the XS1 compared to A35

In fact, it's pretty much the same size as an A77 - I'm sure that they've done their best with the zoom - and I'm also rather partial to the 2/3 sensor compromise (E10 also had it)

. . But if you can have something with a much much bigger and better sensor which is much smaller (and you can easily put on the Excellent tamron 27-270 zoom if you want a super zoom range).

. . . or else, you could have a NEX7:

Fuji X1s compared to NEX7
If you put the Tamron 18-200 zoom on it, it'll also be slightly shorter than the Fuji.
It will also be more than 200 gms lighter than the Fuji
and if you crop your Sony Image you'll easily have the zoom range of the Fuji!

So, I'm all for bridge cameras in principle but if the body is going to be the same size as a Canon 60D, then i don't really see the point.

all the best
Jono, I take your points entirely!

However you do seem to overlook the fact that a good bridge camera the size and weight of the X-s1 also includes a whole lot of lenses. That would save this old bag of bones the weight and bulk of packing and carrying a 200-500, wider angle zoom and macro lens for travelling halfway around the world.

Perhaps you don't need the ultra long reach lens or macro and you are young and fit(???)

Hand baggage requirements whilst usually Ok for inter continental flights are notoriously low for weight on internal or small light aircraft for safari work.

My DSLR's will remain for similar work in the UK where I will have a vehicle fairly close at hand, but for travelling this just might be an answer. As you know, I preach it enough on this and other forum's, I only buy new to meet a definite need. A camera is a tool, nothing more or less for me.

On the subject of image quality with the 2/3 sensor we shall to have wait and see. Suffice to say back in the days of 4 and 5Mpx bridge cameras with clunky electronic zooms, I managed to get excellent images some of which are still winning acceptances at International Exhibitions today. I am anticipating that with modern sensor and processor design images should be even better.

I do accept limitations of the 2/3 sensor, such as lower DR and also the big task of such a massive zoom lens in the optical area. However, modern camera firmware and sheer computer power can electronically overcome many of these shortcomings. We shall see. I am off again next Sunday so it is back to packing the A77 and X100 plus lenses, chargers, batteries, memory cards and binoculars!
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Old 22nd January 2012   #15
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Re: Fuji XS-1

For safari work I probably work and keeping the kit small I still would probably do it again with m4/3. I did 90% of the safari with one body and one lens. GH2 + 100- 300. I know the X-S1 gets to the same range but there is a difference. Both are pretty similar in size but obviously you do get the bigger sensor with m4/3. The G3/GH2 both have ETC mode which is a crop mode that gives you a smaller sized jpeg but allows you to frame and expose in camera. So, an 8mp shot extends your reach to an 800mm equivalent lens. I did have 2 bodies in use with one having a 14-54 on it. You could put the 14-45x pancake on that body so it is like a point and shoot when you go to dinners etc but gives you a backup body in case something goes wrong.

So, I totally get the desire for a bridge camera but I also was unwilling to go with a backup and I did want good IQ. So, far I've printed at 17x25" and I haven't stressed out the pixels.

Most importantly, the areas a so vast, even more "landscape" oriented (non animal portrait) were still mostly done with the 100-300 lens.





Our safari in Kenya was also organized to eliminate the baggage limitations. We had the same Land Rovers and guides for the whole trip and drove from place to place. On the morning of our departure, the guides left with our gear and luggage early in the AM and drove it back to Nairobi. We had a more leisurely AM and flew back to Nairobi late morning with just a small carry on bag with laptop passport and wallet. When we landed in Nairobi the guides were waiting for us and took us to a hotel where we had a day room until our red-eye departures that evening.
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Old 22nd January 2012   #16
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Re: Fuji XS-1

There's a saying that "academic politics is the most bitter and vicious form of politics, because the stakes are so low."

Not that this discussion has reached that level, but . . . .
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Re: Fuji XS-1

Hi Terry

Thanks for that and a great image by the way. Yes I have done safari's before in India and Botswana and also Zambia using my A900 with either A700 or latterly the A77 as back up. in fact the last trip the A77 was almost permanently attached to a 70-300G and the A900 welded o the ZA 16-35!

However I do like the Tamron 200-500 which is slightly lighter than the 70-400G, but the the wide end of the 70-400G is very often required as the big predators sometimes have a habit of getting more close and personal!

However put all of this in a rucksack and it gets heavy between locations. On safari itself, it's a doddle as the "big" cameras are capable of handholding, in fact I use a harness and the spare camera is close at hand usually in the safari vehicle.

It will be interesting to see if the X-s1 produces the acceptable images that the veteran pro photographer has produced for the X-s1 web site. I am not too sceptical about it as I do have personal experience of what the 2/3 sensor
paired to a very good lens can produce in the right light conditions. A safari usually provides those light conditions.

I am sceptical about the optical limits of such a huge zoom range, noise at higher ISO and dynamic range (also a 4/3 bugbear!)

However we have all recently witnessed the massive improvements in APS-C sensor technology, with useabilty at much higher ISO's, lens/firmware technology that is no longer producing that "small sensor, huge depth of field" look that might and only might satisfy my scepticism's.
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Old 22nd January 2012   #18
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Re: Fuji XS-1

Well, the other bit of gear that I'm testing out right now is the Nikon V1. With the 70-200 on it you get about 200-540 range and it is so fast for that focal that simply adding a 1.4x teleconverter you go to a 280 -756 or at 1.7x at about 320-920mm still with good lens speed. The 70-200 is a big lens but gives very fast AF, great frame rate, amazing raw buffer.
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Old 22nd January 2012   #19
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Re: Fuji XS-1

Sorry to say that I have read some early reports that the XS-1 has the same problems with specular highlights as the X10 does. I believe they use the same sensor and that would make sense. I took a photo last night in a restaurant and it really was ruined by the specular highlight issue of the X10. Fuji needs to fix this or make a statement regarding this "characteristic" of the cameras that share this sensor.

I love the X10 but people do have a legitimate gripe when you can't take night shots with the X10 (or the XS-1) due to a sensor issue.

I think I will have a look at the X Pro 1 and not even consider the XS-1.
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Old 22nd January 2012   #20
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Re: Fuji XS-1

Fuji has already acknowledged (thought it doe depend apparently who you ask! :-) ) that this is a sensor issue. The firmware will only try to reduce the effect but the sensor is what it is.

- Raist
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Old 22nd January 2012   #21
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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Fuji has already acknowledged (thought it doe depend apparently who you ask! :-) ) that this is a sensor issue. The firmware will only try to reduce the effect but the sensor is what it is.

- Raist
Yep, I knew that. I find their response to be less than satisfying. This is obviously a sensor flaw and frankly, in my opinion, they should have never allowed this particular sensor to be placed in any of their cameras.

I use the X10 and it is capable of doing some wonderful things.. as long as there are no specular highlights in the shot. I'm not returning mine but I do feel Fuji owes those who bought, what I feel is a flawed camera, some form of rebate. Fuji did not test the sensor thoroughly enough or they would have caught this sensor flaw.

I would not have purchased the X10 had I known the sensor had that issue and I did not discover the issue until almost a month after I bought the camera.

I like the X10 for so many reasons.. it's just a huge shame that this flaw exists and Fuji never caught it or decided that it was a minor issue, not worthy of being addressed.

If the Fuji XS-1 uses the same sensor it will probably have the same problem.
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Old 22nd January 2012   #22
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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Yep, I knew that. I find their response to be less than satisfying. This is obviously a sensor flaw and frankly, in my opinion, they should have never allowed this particular sensor to be placed in any of their cameras.

I use the X10 and it is capable of doing some wonderful things.. as long as there are no specular highlights in the shot. I'm not returning mine but I do feel Fuji owes those who bought, what I feel is a flawed camera, some form of rebate. Fuji did not test the sensor thoroughly enough or they would have caught this sensor flaw.

I would not have purchased the X10 had I known the sensor had that issue and I did not discover the issue until almost a month after I bought the camera.
Well not to sound contrarian or anything but it looks like you got the camera on November 13,2011 and you were reporting on orbs by November 29, 2011 (1/2 a month). Why you didn't return it? Don't know if the place you bought it from has a return policy of 30 days though.

Why say you are not returning it if you wouldn't have bought it in the first place if you knew about the issues a priori?

That said, I think for this issue is hard to draw the line. Should someone say the same thing for say a Canon G11 that has severe chromatic aberrations wide open? Or the P&S they bought that can't focus in reasonable moderate light? I think what makes this stand out is that it usually hasn't happened with other cameras.

I am inclined to agree with you that it would be nice of Fuji to do something, I am not sure if I would agree that they have to. Have to think a bit more on that. The X10 is hardly useless and all cameras have something that is not quite right. I say that the day the perfect camera comes along the universe will come to an end as several key universal laws will be violated :-)

What I would say also is, this says something about buying equipment blind on first release without waiting for reviews. I think it also says something indirectly about buying camera after camera after new camera that gets released. There's an aspect to this gear acquisition or perhaps greed, that makes this constant dice rolling an ever growing risk one will buy something new and shiny with barely any real world battle testing, with some glaring issue.

If you feel Fuji has been very irresponsible, vote with your wallet- don't buy stuff from them. That includes that nice X1-pro.

- Raist
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Old 22nd January 2012   #23
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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Well not to sound contrarian or anything but it looks like you got the camera on November 13,2011 and you were reporting on orbs by November 29, 2011 (1/2 a month). Why you didn't return it? Don't know if the place you bought it from has a return policy of 30 days though.

Why say you are not returning it if you wouldn't have bought it in the first place if you knew about the issues a priori?

- Raist
Feel free to be contrary.....

As I stated in my review of the X10 along with sample photos.. it does so many things right that I would not return it just for the ORBS problem... but, in all honesty, if I had known about the ORBS while I was considering buying it.. I would not have made the purchase. Having made the purchase I found the camera to be extremely good in many other respects.. but last night I did have a good photo op ruined because the camera could not handle the specular highlights involved in the scene I was shooting.

If Fuji has put the same sensor in yet another camera and the problem is due to the sensor then that is just not the proper thing to do. The X10 is the only camera I have ever owned (and I've owned a lot of cameras) that does not handle specular highlights properly.
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Old 22nd January 2012   #24
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Re: Fuji XS-1

>but last night I did have a good photo op ruined because the camera could not handle the specular highlights

That is of course annoying.
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Old 22nd January 2012   #25
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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Feel free to be contrary.....

As I stated in my review of the X10 along with sample photos.. it does so many things right that I would not return it just for the ORBS problem... but, in all honesty, if I had known about the ORBS while I was considering buying it.. I would not have made the purchase. Having made the purchase I found the camera to be extremely good in many other respects.. but last night I did have a good photo op ruined because the camera could not handle the specular highlights involved in the scene I was shooting.
Ok that makes more sense to me now (i.e you found many advantages to it,a and now you rather keep).

Quote:
If Fuji has put the same sensor in yet another camera and the problem is due to the sensor then that is just not the proper thing to do. The X10 is the only camera I have ever owned (and I've owned a lot of cameras) that does not handle specular highlights properly.
Yes, it has the same exact sensor. I wonder if they will try to fix the design somehow and do a "new stepping" of the sensor, but this is not a trivial engineering task.

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Old 22nd January 2012   #26
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Re: Fuji XS-1

so you mean cameras like this one are just like people - they have some built in design flaws that continue to crop up again and again like a scratch in a gramophone record but sometimes they also surprise with nice features that make putting up with the peevishness worthwhile.

not being very tolerant of either camera or human frailty (apart from my own) I am sitting this one out watching like many others and waiting in my case for a full frame compact something like the M9 in an affordable package.

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Old 22nd January 2012   #27
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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so you mean cameras like this one are just like people - they have some built in design flaws that continue to crop up again and again like a scratch in a gramophone record but sometimes they also surprise with nice features that make putting up with the peevishness worthwhile.

Fuji obviously did not do enough testing where this particular sensor is concerned. If they had, they would have noticed the problem. I think this may have been a "Rush to Market" ooops. Leica made the same mistake with the M8 and the IR sensitivity. Leica's "fix" was to offer IR cut filters to everyone who bought the M8. So we had to place another piece of glass in front of that great Leica glass to eliminate the IR issue... not a good solution but the only one Leica offered. Firmware couldn't fix it. Fuji has yet to offer anything in the way of a fix and frankly, I don't think they can fix this problem short of replacing the sensor as this seems to be a characteristic of the sensor and not something a firmware update can eliminate.

My fear is that Fuji will try to "fix" or lessen the problem with specular highlights at the expense of some other parameter or feature of the camera.

What I am saying is that the XS-1 has the same sensor and will probably have the same problem... yet Fuji went ahead with the launch of that camera anyway knowing that the sensor it contains has "issues". It just doesn't seem right to me.
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Old 22nd January 2012   #28
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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My fear is that Fuji will try to "fix" or lessen the problem with specular highlights at the expense of some other parameter or feature of the camera.
This is one instance where I would NOT rush to update the firmware and let others test it for you.
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Old 22nd January 2012   #29
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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What I am saying is that the XS-1 has the same sensor and will probably have the same problem... yet Fuji went ahead with the launch of that camera anyway knowing that the sensor it contains has "issues". It just doesn't seem right to me.
They're probably hoping that those that really object to the specular highlights move on, and those that don't move on will stop talking about it.

People still love the M8 for it's good points (and quite right too) - the shortcomings are such old conversations that nobody bothers with them anymore.

If you're right about the XS-1, and in the knowledge that ordering the sensors for cameras may be a two year lead time, they were probably faced with two options:
1. go for it and hope for the best
2. shelve the camera for at least a year and probably two (i.e bin the whole project and start from scratch)

On the other hand - even if it's not fixable in firmware, it may be fixable with a small hardware change - which they probably would have had time to do.

Whatever the truth is, I doubt they'll tell us!
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Old 22nd January 2012   #30
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Re: Fuji XS-1

I think it's entirely possible that Fuji knew the issue and they decided that it was still ok to ship this way.

So a few options here for the X10'ners:

- sue Fuji class action style, and if orbs show on the XS-1 you bolster your case
- sell your X10
- accept your X10 with its pros and cons- even what you think are design flaws.

This is a sensor issue. Anyone else thinking a firmware will do a miracle fix is only living in denial, imho.

PS: I must say, for all the fun a lot at dpreview/fuji forum made of the Pentax Q, the Q doesn't have any issues like these. My deal breaker with the X10 was not this issue.
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Old 23rd January 2012   #31
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Re: Fuji XS-1

Well it hasn't stopped Uwe posting some fantastic images taken with his X10 and posted here on the X10 thread.

I would imagine that Fujifim have already made a batch of these sensors and are hoping to use them up before updating the design. It comes down to risk management by a manufacturer when faced with this sort of problem. Nobody is likely to die as a result of a few light orbs, but reputations are easily lost!

I shall wait and see if the latest production models of the Xs-1 have the same problem.
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Old 23rd January 2012   #32
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Re: Fuji XS-1

class action suit: orbs versus blobs?
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Old 23rd January 2012   #33
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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Well it hasn't stopped Uwe posting some fantastic images taken with his X10 and posted here on the X10 thread.

I would imagine that Fujifim have already made a batch of these sensors and are hoping to use them up before updating the design. It comes down to risk management by a manufacturer when faced with this sort of problem. Nobody is likely to die as a result of a few light orbs, but reputations are easily lost!
Well - indeed they are - but only for a minute or two - I suspect that reports of light orbs will forgotten very soon.
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Old 24th January 2012   #34
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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Well it hasn't stopped Uwe posting some fantastic images taken with his X10 and posted here on the X10 thread.

I would imagine that Fujifim have already made a batch of these sensors and are hoping to use them up before updating the design. It comes down to risk management by a manufacturer when faced with this sort of problem. Nobody is likely to die as a result of a few light orbs, but reputations are easily lost!

I shall wait and see if the latest production models of the Xs-1 have the same problem.
I have doen lot of search for this ORB issue now and must say that I am not really concerned. There are a number of other cameras on the market which are not even performing that excellent as the X10 does WRT to ORB.

I must say that I really HATE all this hype making in different Fora on the internet. And most times if you look carefully the ones who start such hypes are just in a different boat and thus try to make (discuss) their decisions "good" not to have chosen a specific product.

I must also say that I was more often disappointed by the not so optimal function of specific products from almost all the vendors we are discussing here, than this little ORB issue is disappointing me.

The X10 is a fantastic camera (concept) and performs in so many areas well above average that this is a clear go! Similar foe the XS1, which IMHO is the first really acceptable "bridge" design.

So I would suggest stopping all that negative hype and start using these products - OR - leave them alone and don't look any longer to Fujifilm. Which will definitely not be true in my case!

Peter
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Old 24th January 2012   #35
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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The X10 is a fantastic camera (concept) and performs in so many areas well above average that this is a clear go! Similar foe the XS1, which IMHO is the first really acceptable "bridge" design.

So I would suggest stopping all that negative hype and start using these products - OR - leave them alone and don't look any longer to Fujifilm. Which will definitely not be true in my case!

Peter
I agree.. the X10 is a very good camera. There are those in other forums who constantly rant about the ORB issue and just will not let it go. I don't think anyone thinks the way the X10 handles specular highlights is correct. It truly does make a mess of things sometimes.

Most of the time this not an issue for me but when it does happen on a really good photo as it did the other night, it really is bothersome. Had I been using any of my other cameras (GF1, GH2, K5 or even the D-Lux 5) I would have had a keeper.

I think many are upset that having spent the money on the X10 that it does not handle the specular highlight issue as well as cheaper and older cameras.. I think that is what really bothers many. It bothers me but not enough for me to give up the X10.. as it does do so many things better than other cameras in its class.

As for stopping the negative hype... well, I think most X10 owners deserve a camera that does handle specular highlights properly. So, of course, they run to the forums and vent, which is not to be unexpected. The price of the X10 is considerable to some and to a certain extent their disappointment is justified. Fuji should have caught the issue and maybe they did but felt it was not that big a deal. I'm still waiting to hear some response from Fuji other than "It's normal blooming." as it clearly is not. I am still hoping for a firmware release that at least will lessen the effect without impacting (in a negative way) other capabilties of the X10.
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Old 24th January 2012   #36
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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I am still hoping for a firmware release that at least will lessen the effect without impacting (in a negative way) other capabilties of the X10.
+1
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Old 24th January 2012   #37
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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I agree.. the X10 is a very good camera. There are those in other forums who constantly rant about the ORB issue and just will not let it go. I don't think anyone thinks the way the X10 handles specular highlights is correct. It truly does make a mess of things sometimes.

Most of the time this not an issue for me but when it does happen on a really good photo as it did the other night, it really is bothersome. Had I been using any of my other cameras (GF1, GH2, K5 or even the D-Lux 5) I would have had a keeper.

I think many are upset that having spent the money on the X10 that it does not handle the specular highlight issue as well as cheaper and older cameras.. I think that is what really bothers many. It bothers me but not enough for me to give up the X10.. as it does do so many things better than other cameras in its class.

As for stopping the negative hype... well, I think most X10 owners deserve a camera that does handle specular highlights properly. So, of course, they run to the forums and vent, which is not to be unexpected. The price of the X10 is considerable to some and to a certain extent their disappointment is justified. Fuji should have caught the issue and maybe they did but felt it was not that big a deal. I'm still waiting to hear some response from Fuji other than "It's normal blooming." as it clearly is not. I am still hoping for a firmware release that at least will lessen the effect without impacting (in a negative way) other capabilties of the X10.
Photoshop is no help?
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Old 24th January 2012   #38
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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Photoshop is no help?
Of course I can fix some of the orbs in Photoshop but the point is.. I should not have to do so.

The shot from the other night had many, many high intensity lights in the restaurant (small halogens) and it would have taken hours to fix them all.
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Old 25th January 2012   #39
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Re: Fuji XS-1

Fujifilm are extremely quick usually in fixing any bugs in firmware updates. The X100 had three firmware updates in almost as many months!

My guess that this is not an easy firmware up date but not worth (to them anyway) changing the design at this stage. Jono is probably correct in surmising that they have built a large batch of sensors that need to be used up.

The X11 and X-S2 might be the ones to go for! However, if your style of photography rarely if ever results in ever seeing these light orbs, anyone who already has or ordered either camera shouldn't be too concerned.

Jono's analogy of the M8 issues is a classic example. The M8 was sent out on a huge beta testing program, with trusted photographers using pre-launch cameras extensively and there were no reports of the IR problems that became apparent after the same camera was on the open market.

The resulting internet and press fury was massive , but then the camera was sold for thousands rather than hundreds! Now the M8 and M8.2 are much sought after on the used camera market, still with exactly the same problematic sensor! For any photographer not engaged in fashion photography it is still a first class camera!

Much the same can be assumed of the X10 and possibly the newer X-S1. Fujifilm will have made this assessment themselves for sure.
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Old 25th January 2012   #40
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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Jono's analogy of the M8 issues is a classic example. The M8 was sent out on a huge beta testing program, with trusted photographers using pre-launch cameras extensively and there were no reports of the IR problems that became apparent after the same camera was on the open market.

The resulting internet and press fury was massive , but then the camera was sold for thousands rather than hundreds! Now the M8 and M8.2 are much sought after on the used camera market, still with exactly the same problematic sensor! For any photographer not engaged in fashion photography it is still a first class camera!

Much the same can be assumed of the X10 and possibly the newer X-S1. Fujifilm will have made this assessment themselves for sure.
I think you are correct in that Fuji has a stock of those sensors and wants to get rid of them.. and I am betting that the X-S1 may be the last camera to use that exact sensor.

The M8 and M8.2 are sought after for entirely different reasons than the X10. First, it's a Leica. Second, many who cannot afford an M9 will opt for the much cheaper (now) M8 or M8.2. I doubt that the X10 will become a sought after camera on the used market. We're talking apples and oranges here.
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Old 25th January 2012   #41
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Re: Fuji XS-1

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.... I doubt that the X10 will become a sought after camera on the used market. We're talking apples and oranges here.
I wouldn't argue with that Jim!
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Old 28th January 2012   #42
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Re: Fuji XS-1

X-S1 user images are beginning to appear now: X-S1 now in the shops - Fuji X Forum

Note the barrel distortion at 24mm (Horse's shot) which is to be expected with such a massive zoom. The bottle shot is quite impressive for sharpness and noise at 1600 ISO.
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Old 29th February 2012   #43
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Re: Fuji XS-1

I have just checked out the XS-1 out in my local LCE store. It seems slow to lock on to focus and the change from LCD to EVF view happens whenever it wants! I am sure that this can be adjusted but the long retracting lens barrel is a worry to me as it wobbles substantially in the short outer tube.

I am even sure that it even sags a tiny bit at full extension to my eye which doesn't auger well when the camera has seen a bit of action and age!

Suffice to say that this was the show stopper for me!
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Old 29th February 2012   #44
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Re: Fuji XS-1

This camera could really have been a nice step forward WRT high end all in one's.

Albeit after my experiences with the X10 I am out of the Fuji game.

Shall others test and try for the next few years
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