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Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

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fotografz

Well-known member
Thats what I just thought. I admit that I love the smooth rendering of some of my Rollei (Zeiss and Schneider) lenses but overall I admit that the IQ one sees from Hassy MF images and Mamiya/Phase Images looks all so good and Iwould expect the same from the new Leica lenses.

If I had to decide between the systems (which I dont have to because I allready went the Hy6-way) I would rather look at factors like:
-availability of lenses
-speed and more important accurancy of AF
-user interface of camera and software
-reliability and service
-size and handling
-price and value
-flexibility

I personally doubt anybody could detect any practical IQ differences between those systems. Just my opinion.


The S2 is smaller and lighter and weather sealed-but the lenses are the same size and bulk. How much do you really gain?

As a hobby photographer who prints big but not that big I would wish for something else by the way:
A 35mm full frame sensor with the character of a MF sensor: ccd, no AA, maybe not so great high ISO but great low ISO detail and tonality
Something like the M9, but with the AF speed and accurancy of a Nikon D700/D3 camera. Give it 16MP or 24 if possible.
The DMR was a little bit like that but I just didnt manage the manuel focus that well.
Naturally, the makers of various MFD systems would have us believe their offering to be best, and I'm sure they personally believe that themselves, as they should. Users or fans will naturally gravitate to supporting their own personal decisions. But one only need scroll through all the images displayed here on just this forum, or to look at actual prints, or even who is using certain gear in the commercial or art world, to recognize how narrow the IQ chart really is.

Specific features probably play a much bigger role than IQ for most experienced people. From all the posts on the S2, it appears the form factor is a main appeal, where with others it is the reason not to buy compared to the other more versatile modular forms of MFD machines. Oddly, my expectations of the S2's IQ was that of a larger DMR ... which for me it was not. Those IQ expectations where probably unrealistic because I was looking for a replacement for my 35mm gear not MFD ... so, even given the DMR/IQ disappointment I may have gotten the S2 had it performed better in other areas like AF, and if you could actually get the lenses needed.


IMO, there are few folks that wouldn't be better off NOT buying yet another upgrade or MFD do-dad ... and spend the time and money getting better with what they have. For landscape inclined shooters, one of Jack and Guy's Workshops would pay more dividends than yet another lens or some $40K system swap. My pal Irakly Shanidze teachs workshops all over the world, and I'm dumbfounded at the creative transformation many of his students make no matter what camera they use. Simply amazing.


BTW, RE; 35mm ... a lot of us have found the Sony A900 to be the closest thing to what you are longing for... but it's still CMOS. However, it seems to have a lot less filtration and more attention to the low to mid-level ISOs and tonality, so the ISO performance and look is more MFD like than NikCan. The Zeiss AF lenses help with the over-all usability, tonality, feel and personality. Beautiful color and character right out of the camera :thumbup:

Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Not sure i would argue one single point Marc. BTW I really am a sick person just bought a Sony 850 with 24-70 and looking at a 135 for backup and also PR stuff. In all truth I see no value whatsoever in upgrading my Phase P40+ and I print BIG and have big client needs. They only thing would be ergos on the back itself better LCD and such but you are correct the IQ is so damn close when you hit this level it really just comes down to software and preferences. The S2 is sweet for sure but right now i see no value in upgrading to it until everything is out and maybe even until a S3. Frankly if your already here stay put otherwise learn photography is a much better option. People walk away from these workshops with a holy **** attitude and actually learn something. I'm just not saying that either just ask anyone of them.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
;)@ symbolphoto

You should read posts more carefully before you claim something, right? I said I OWN the H3D39 and I TRIED the S2 - actually I would love to be able to own both, but this is kind of far away :rolleyes::D

Nevertheless what I wrote are my personal opinions, nobody needs to feel offended using whatever MFD system. The one thing I do not do any longer is waste my time with comparison shots. If you get accustomed to a system and its lenses then you start seeing the differences to this standard without sophisticated comparisons. And just Pixel counting is the wrong way, we all know that. There are SO much more parameters, which actually weigh more than just the number of MPs.

Is S2 MF or not - again this is subjective and for me it is because of substantially larger sensor compared to FF 35.

But I will (need) to stay for a while with my Hassy anyway, independent if I like S2 more or not. The one thing I learned is that even for very demanding landscape photography 40MP are more than enough - even if you print very large. Watching a print from a distance more than 1m makes all these advantages of >40MP pretty much disappear. What counts more is a better (newer) sensor, which gives you more DR, better high ISO etc, like for example the P40+ or a sensor like in the S2, which is same generation (not same manufacturer).
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
Not sure i would argue one single point Marc. BTW I really am a sick person just bought a Sony 850 with 24-70 and looking at a 135 for backup and also PR stuff. In all truth I see no value whatsoever in upgrading my Phase P40+ and I print BIG and have big client needs. They only thing would be ergos on the back itself better LCD and such but you are correct the IQ is so damn close when you hit this level it really just comes down to software and preferences. The S2 is sweet for sure but right now i see no value in upgrading to it until everything is out and maybe even until a S3. Frankly if your already here stay put otherwise learn photography is a much better option. People walk away from these workshops with a holy **** attitude and actually learn something. I'm just not saying that either just ask anyone of them.
Another convert to Sony from the gear piggy himself ;) Wait'll you bolt on that 135/1.8 Guy :thumbs:

Seriously, if I were a landscape shooter I'd not only forego buying some lens, I'd sell one to go to one of Guy and Jack's workshops.

Upgrade your work first, not your gear ... unless you have tons of money ... then do both :ROTFL:

-Marc
 

symbolphoto

New member
;)@ symbolphoto

You should read posts more carefully before you claim something, right? I said I OWN the H3D39 and I TRIED the S2 - actually I would love to be able to own both, but this is kind of far away :rolleyes::D

Nevertheless what I wrote are my personal opinions, nobody needs to feel offended using whatever MFD system. The one thing I do not do any longer is waste my time with comparison shots. If you get accustomed to a system and its lenses then you start seeing the differences to this standard without sophisticated comparisons. And just Pixel counting is the wrong way, we all know that. There are SO much more parameters, which actually weigh more than just the number of MPs.

Is S2 MF or not - again this is subjective and for me it is because of substantially larger sensor compared to FF 35.

But I will (need) to stay for a while with my Hassy anyway, independent if I like S2 more or not. The one thing I learned is that even for very demanding landscape photography 40MP are more than enough - even if you print very large. Watching a print from a distance more than 1m makes all these advantages of >40MP pretty much disappear. What counts more is a better (newer) sensor, which gives you more DR, better high ISO etc, like for example the P40+ or a sensor like in the S2, which is same generation (not same manufacturer).
I did assume you owned it because in my mind for someone to make a statement like that about the systems, they usually spend a decent amount of time with it.

Oh i'm not offended at all. You can very well think the S2 is better than any other system out there. And you know what? - it may very well be.

But, i was simply asking you to quantify how that is. I don't understand these claims of higher quality, as in - please explain to me why you feel that way as i don't see how they could be that much better.

As much as i like this forum, people get in a tizzy pretty fast here....

:wtf:
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I did assume you owned it because in my mind for someone to make a statement like that about the systems, they usually spend a decent amount of time with it.

Oh i'm not offended at all. You can very well think the S2 is better than any other system out there. And you know what? - it may very well be.

But, i was simply asking you to quantify how that is. I don't understand these claims of higher quality, as in - please explain to me why you feel that way as i don't see how they could be that much better.

As much as i like this forum, people get in a tizzy pretty fast here....

:wtf:
Look,

I am not a Leica fanboy, I am not even fighting or defending Leica, their products or the S2 specifically.

Only thing I said is - I loved the look of the Leica images, they were rich, colorful, detailed etc etc. Some CA which is due to the Leica lens design, but that can be come over with the right SW tools. Just a personal feel.

And it is tiny compared to the usual MFDB solutions.

And meanwhile I am not alone with that opinion.

Will I buy one? Probably no, as I am a happy camper in the H system. Which is perfect. But just not better as the S system but much heavier and bulky. But also for different focus groups.

Think we stop that now, as I do not want this forum to come anywhere close to the LUF:angel:

All the best

Peter
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Wow,
I feel like a substitute teacher that went out for a second and the whole class went berserk!
That are some very valid points being made between these two models and I agree that there's no empirical data to substantiate various claims made on the S2, at least I have not read them yet. My interest in this camera (S2), is for various reasons, mostly weather resistance, battery, and reliability. I would agree that with the sensor technology in MFD, it's not easy telling the difference at base ISO between the two. I love the ability to completely disassemble the H4D/40 for cleaning. I hate that it always gets dirty. I love the lenses. I hate the battery. I love the IQ. I hate that there's no weather resistance. I love it's low light hand held shooting ability. I hate having to re-set
it. I love Hasselblads customer service. I hate having to call them.

I do love shooting with this camera (H4D), but if only there was more weather resistance and a better battery...That's why I wondered about the S2.
 

symbolphoto

New member
Wow,
I feel like a substitute teacher that went out for a second and the whole class went berserk!
Yah, this forum is rather 'touchy'. :rolleyes:

That are some very valid points being made between these two models and I agree that there's no empirical data to substantiate various claims made on the S2, at least I have not read them yet. My interest in this camera (S2), is for various reasons, mostly weather resistance, battery, and reliability. I would agree that with the sensor technology in MFD, it's not easy telling the difference at base ISO between the two. I love the ability to completely disassemble the H4D/40 for cleaning. I hate that it always gets dirty. I love the lenses. I hate the battery. I love the IQ. I hate that there's no weather resistance. I love it's low light hand held shooting ability. I hate having to re-set
it. I love Hasselblads customer service. I hate having to call them.

I do love shooting with this camera (H4D), but if only there was more weather resistance and a better battery...That's why I wondered about the S2.
All valid points for sure. While i don't really need the weather sealing, the sensor does get dirty from time to time...
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Wow,
I feel like a substitute teacher that went out for a second and the whole class went berserk!
That are some very valid points being made between these two models and I agree that there's no empirical data to substantiate various claims made on the S2, at least I have not read them yet. My interest in this camera (S2), is for various reasons, mostly weather resistance, battery, and reliability. I would agree that with the sensor technology in MFD, it's not easy telling the difference at base ISO between the two. I love the ability to completely disassemble the H4D/40 for cleaning. I hate that it always gets dirty. I love the lenses. I hate the battery. I love the IQ. I hate that there's no weather resistance. I love it's low light hand held shooting ability. I hate having to re-set
it. I love Hasselblads customer service. I hate having to call them.

I do love shooting with this camera (H4D), but if only there was more weather resistance and a better battery...That's why I wondered about the S2.
We all come here to share our experiences and knowledge in the use of these sophisticated cameras. I personally couldn't care less what anyone chooses or doesn't choose. I learn a lot here, and share a lot here, and do NOT find it to be an overly "sensitive" forum at all ... but will share knowledge or opinions if I disagree or have another perspective.

Based on experience:

Dust will eventually get on the sensor of any digital camera with a removable lens unless you only use it in a computer clean room or never remove the lens ... including the S2. People who shoot a fully weather sealed Canon 1 series pro camera also have to clean the sensor from time to time. The weather sealing of the S2 has other major advantages for certain types of shooting, but a spotless sensor isn't one of them.

The H battery is no different from any other Lithium battery. Reseting the battery fuel gauge is usually attributable to not conditioning the battery per instructions in the manual ... which people tend to not read, and then wonder why something doesn't work the way they want ... been there, done that myself :eek:.

I noted the procedure to reset the H battery fuel gauge in my post above. It takes all of 5 seconds, and once done shouldn't be needed again ... IF you follow the directions in the manual and deplete the battery fully a couple of times a year and then fully recharge it for 12 hours. I rarely, if ever, need my second H battery during a shoot.

Plus, we have to remember that the H camera uses one battery to drive both the camera and the back as opposed to the need for two separate battery supplies on other MFD modular cameras.

If you do long sessions in the studio with the camera on for long periods of time using lots of the energy draining features, I recommend the AC H power grip. I also like it because I always have a powered camera for impromptu shoots without having to worry if I have a fully charged-up battery at the ready all of the time.

If you repeatedly have to re-set anything else on the camera, then something is wrong and your Hasselblad dealer should be consulted.

That's the info based on actually using this stuff for a long time, take it or leave it. :)

-Marc
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
@ Mark

fully agree with your comments on battery and H system! This is actually a major design advantage over the other market leader in MFDB.

Having said that - the S2 battery performs even better - but this is a newly designed camera.
 
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