Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso

I read this with a chuckle in my belly. I have been a Pro for 35 years and counting and the real definition of a working Pro is simply this. Every shot you take every situation you are in no matter what is on the line or the simplest thing in the world to shoot are two very basic principles. Better write this down and remember it One is your job is to solve an issue or a situation Two there is ALWAYS a workaround. Once you master both of these you have the world eating out of your hands. Basically it comes down to this your thrown in a bull pen One you have to figure out your best way out and two you will find something to get your *** over the fence quickly. If you can't coordinate those two than your dinner. Same with the BUSINESS of Photography.

Which exactly leads me to this , need more battery life buy more batteries need weather sealing do what everyone on the planet does in the video business and sports business get a freaking cover. Or if you're a cheap skate get a 2 gallon zip lock bag.

Find a solution. Now you all know I am busting your chops here because I love you all so much and it's my sick sense of Friday humor but bury those two points in your head you will go far with them. You need to be a MacGuyver and a Swiss Army Knife.

Just a FYI. I have one and live in the Desert go figure

A grizzled old Executive Art Director once told me that 90% of this game is getting your behind out of a jam.

He was right on ... and I found that each jam teaches you another level of workarounds, and the more low tech the solution the more reliable it is as a back-up.

To follow up on Jono's tale ... I'm shooting a wedding party on location with a H3D-II/31 ... I caution the couple that there are severe storm warnings, but they insist on the location which is about 400 yards from the Limo over a bridge. Suddenly storm sirens began wailing and in an instant a wall of water hits, with a howling wind driving the rain vertically. l was soaked to my undies before I could even turn to run ... and as I ran, I severely pulled my ham string. At the car I get my doorman's umbrella to start limping back for the B&G. The wind literally rips off the cover and it disappears off into the dark sky. Poor Bride looked like a drowned rat.

I had 5 hours left on the shoot ... the deluged H camera worked perfectly ... my body did not

-Marc

[jonoslack]

Originally Posted by fotografz

To follow up on Jono's tale ... I'm shooting a wedding party on location with a H3D-II/31 ... I caution the couple that there are severe storm warnings, but they insist on the location which is about 400 yards from the Limo over a bridge. Suddenly storm sirens began wailing and in an instant a wall of water hits, with a howling wind driving the rain vertically. l was soaked to my undies before I could even turn to run ... and as I ran, I severely pulled my ham string. At the car I get my doorman's umbrella to start limping back for the B&G. The wind literally rips off the cover and it disappears off into the dark sky. Poor Bride looked like a drowned rat.

I had 5 hours left on the shoot ... the deluged H camera worked perfectly ... my body did not

-Marc

I bow to the master of disaster . . . I'm just a learner in the game of the wedding. . the other rules is that you MUST keep smiling.

Thelonious Monk was being interviewed by a rookie reporter who said something like "Mr Monk, you seem to make a lot of mistakes" to which he replied:
"Man - there is no such thing as a bum note . . . it all depends on how you resolve it"

[johnnygoesdigital]

Guy,

Wait...what? Well, that logic might be okay, if, as in one of your previous posts you're only 3 minutes from your house when you drop a lens. What's interesting is that you opted to drive an hour to replace it instead. Let's say you're climbing deep into a canyon that has a very short window for "magic light", you've brought extra batteries, safety straps, even rain protection, and there it is...the sun starts to rake the top of the trees, the mist becomes more evident as the color temp changes and the canyon is you own personal fire works display of red and yellow maples. The waterfall is perfect as you compose what is sure to be your best photograph ever...then the slap of the shutter is different as your camera now becomes a 5lb. paper weight. No amount of coaxing or re-setting is going to get it to un - freeze. Sunshine and lollipops are not going to get the camera to perform. If I knew that bigfoot was going to ride a unicorn down the street wearing a coconut bra, I would grab the camera that is reliable, and right now I don't know which one that is. Although, it's a 35mm, my Canon 1DSmkII, never, ever had issues...even in the rain!

[Mike M]

Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital

If I knew that bigfoot was going to ride a unicorn down the street wearing a coconut bra, I would grab the camera that is reliable, and right now I don't know which one that is.

lol! that one made me laugh

I think Guy's point is good. Something like weather sealing can be worked around and might not be enough of a reason to spend 10s of thousands of dollars changing camera systems. But to each his own...everybody is working in a different context. Heck, I'm wondering why you guys want to be out in weather that would require sealing. F that - I like a cozy studio The only time that I may have needed weather sealing in the past was when my friend Heather let me take pictures of her in the shower.

One thing is for sure...It's getting harder and harder for people to conjure up reasons to bash the S2. They may or may not like it...but it's getting harder to find real solid reasons to bash it

[Guy Mancuso]

Well outside of 5 minutes I do honestly carry a backup. Usually pack a 4/3rds camera in my bag. Or just chuck the 35 mm in back of car but in the wild it out on location for clients I do carry something for sure.more my point is do you really want to be in a down pour with a 30k system without a real rain cover. Sure weather sealing sounds nice but try changing a lens. You want at least some real protection. Yes it is a nice feature but let's be honest more marketing than real world. I would not risk a S2 in any amount of weather just like I would risk a Hassy or Phase. I want some external protection.

[johnnygoesdigital]

Mike, nice...feel free to post those pics!

Guy, excellent points, no, I definitely would not want to shoot in the rain and those rain bags are handy, but I do seek out those kind of landscapes. The reliability factor is obviously more important and the weather sealing is a bonus.

[Guy Mancuso]

I agree reliabilty is so important and we really do need to watch our CYA and prepare for the worst. The hard part as we have chatted about is MF true backups are in the tens of thousands. Which really makes it tough to come up with good solutions

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by Mike M

lol! that one made me laugh

I think Guy's point is good. Something like weather sealing can be worked around and might not be enough of a reason to spend 10s of thousands of dollars changing camera systems. But to each his own...everybody is working in a different context. Heck, I'm wondering why you guys want to be out in weather that would require sealing. F that - I like a cozy studio The only time that I may have needed weather sealing in the past was when my friend Heather let me take pictures of her in the shower.

One thing is for sure...It's getting harder and harder for people to conjure up reasons to bash the S2. They may or may not like it...but it's getting harder to find real solid reasons to bash it

Has there been any real S2 bashing ... at least on this forum? I've seen considered questions about it. Besides, what's not to like with-in its own set of specifications? If those specifications do not fit a photographer's needs then it isn't the right camera.

Personally (and I MEAN personally), I've yet to see convincing images from it, and consider some of the raves about some S2 images as an example of "The Emperor's New Clothes". At the end of the day, the images are all that count no matter what it all says on paper. I'm chalking it up to that it's new, and yet to be explored and exploited fully. Time will tell.

-Marc

[fotografz]

All of us have had our "go to" camera when you absolutely have to get the shot ... 100% track record of 100% reliability ... until it's not.

-Marc

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by tjv

I'm not disputing this comment but I'm interested in why you say this. I don't currently have a MF system but when doing research it seems on paper that Hasselblad currently have the more innovative product, i.e. they have True Focus, an integrated system (one battery for body and back etc,) and accessories like the HTS. They also now have a 60mpx back with, I believe, a higher resolution screen than the P65+. Again, I'm not disputing your claim, I'm just interested in why most people say Phase have a technology advantage. Is it that they release upgraded products more frequently?

This discussion easily could open another rathole Anyway here my answer, maybe some others can answer better.

1) In terms of innovative product - depends what you see as innovation ??? H has the TS adapter, but did you really try it? I have one, a great tool, but it makes your bulky MFD cam even bulkier. No more AF etc. I meanwhile prefer a tech cam + MFDB here! But this is a personal opinion of course.

Phase has TS lenses meanwhile - a Schneider lens, which without any doubt I rate upfront higher than any Fujinon H lens!

2) True Focus - innovative for sure, but the Phase DF is at least as fast, without True Focus, but did we have TF before and did the shots not get sharp? Not to speak about the S2 which in my opinion is toping both H and P

3) 60MP back - you could get the P65+ for almost 2 years now, in times when H was only able to deliver 50MP. It took them 2 years to make their promises true and come with a 60MP camera. Meanwhile Phase already has a 80MP back (Leaf). How long will it take H to come there?

4) Higher resolution screen - I could not care less about a higher res screen, or larger screen, but I would really love a screen which is easily readable even in bright sunlight. All vendors suck here!

In terms of digital and digital workflow (C1 Pro) Phase has the clear technology advantage today and I see no signs they would give that up.

Having said all this, my mind is that Leica is interesting nevertheless because of their S system which actually is also on top technology wise, but sure a bit limited in terms of flexibility - at least today.

All these systems are great systems, it always depends on what you really need. I would not buy pure technology leadership, if the system does not fit my needs - right?

[Professional]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

This discussion easily could open another rathole Anyway here my answer, maybe some others can answer better.

1) In terms of innovative product - depends what you see as innovation ??? H has the TS adapter, but did you really try it? I have one, a great tool, but it makes your bulky MFD cam even bulkier. No more AF etc. I meanwhile prefer a tech cam + MFDB here! But this is a personal opinion of course.

Phase has TS lenses meanwhile - a Schneider lens, which without any doubt I rate upfront higher than any Fujinon H lens!

2) True Focus - innovative for sure, but the Phase DF is at least as fast, without True Focus, but did we have TF before and did the shots not get sharp? Not to speak about the S2 which in my opinion is toping both H and P

3) 60MP back - you could get the P65+ for almost 2 years now, in times when H was only able to deliver 50MP. It took them 2 years to make their promises true and come with a 60MP camera. Meanwhile Phase already has a 80MP back (Leaf). How long will it take H to come there?

4) Higher resolution screen - I could not care less about a higher res screen, or larger screen, but I would really love a screen which is easily readable even in bright sunlight. All vendors suck here!

In terms of digital and digital workflow (C1 Pro) Phase has the clear technology advantage today and I see no signs they would give that up.

Having said all this, my mind is that Leica is interesting nevertheless because of their S system which actually is also on top technology wise, but sure a bit limited in terms of flexibility - at least today.

All these systems are great systems, it always depends on what you really need. I would not buy pure technology leadership, if the system does not fit my needs - right?

Well said, but still people buy whatever suit their needs, whether they believe in all of what you said or not.

[Professional]

And sometimes they buy according to reviews/recommendations or something else rather than needs.

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

This discussion easily could open another rathole Anyway here my answer, maybe some others can answer better.

1) In terms of innovative product - depends what you see as innovation ??? H has the TS adapter, but did you really try it? I have one, a great tool, but it makes your bulky MFD cam even bulkier. No more AF etc. I meanwhile prefer a tech cam + MFDB here! But this is a personal opinion of course.

Yes I use a HTS. It has streamlined my commercial table-top work-flow, added new creative possibilities for portraits, and has cut any need to use my Rollei Xact-II to almost zero except for wide work and extreme TS needs. It is nowhere near the size of a view camera and fits into a side pocket of my H bag so it's with me all the time ... and bulky is a relative term since the thing isn't exactly a hand held accessory anyway ... even though you can use it that way for spontaneous portraits.

Phase has TS lenses meanwhile - a Schneider lens, which without any doubt I rate upfront higher than any Fujinon H lens!

Like I said about the Leica lenses ... let's see the proof. Web blab is one thing, printed proof is another. Blind Brand name devotion doesn't work anymore. Images tell the story.

2) True Focus - innovative for sure, but the Phase DF is at least as fast, without True Focus, but did we have TF before and did the shots not get sharp? Not to speak about the S2 which in my opinion is toping both H and P

Now this is just odd. If using the center focus point only were accurate for off-center subjects, why would the DSLRs add 45 focus points? It's physics. And yes there were sharp shots before ... and a lot of not so sharp shots which you never saw. This is a major technological AF innovation that has improved my use of MFD a lot, especially for more spontaneous candid work. I've seen no evidence that the S2 AF is faster than the H or Phase camera ... my experience with the S2 was the opposite. I believe that it has been improved, but I doubt it is better than H or Phase

3) 60MP back - you could get the P65+ for almost 2 years now, in times when H was only able to deliver 50MP. It took them 2 years to make their promises true and come with a 60MP camera. Meanwhile Phase already has a 80MP back (Leaf). How long will it take H to come there?

IMO, this is true. Hasselblad prioritized their limited resources on other things their users requested ... (see above). Plus, they continued to support their legacy V users with a 39 and 50 meg CFV back and continue to develop their Multi-Shot technology (soon to offer 200 meg). Different requests dictate different R&D paths. The Meg race isn't everything to everyone.

4) Higher resolution screen - I could not care less about a higher res screen, or larger screen, but I would really love a screen which is easily readable even in bright sunlight. All vendors suck here!

Also true that they all suck. However, I do care about a high res screen for paid location work so I can check focus better. No existing H4D/60 has the double res LCD yet because the firmware hasn't been quite completed to enable it. So, hopefully we'll see how good it is in a month or so. It does cheese me off that Hassey didn't put that screen on the 40 and 50 meg backs.

In terms of digital and digital workflow (C1 Pro) Phase has the clear technology advantage today and I see no signs they would give that up.

Matter of opinion. I have both Phocus and C1Pro software on my computer, and both suck in terms of workflow compared to LR3.2 ... so both have a long way to go. Phocus has DAC for HC and Zeiss V work, has Hasselblad true color profiles, and is necessary for tethered Multi-Shot work, which is all I care about.

Having said all this, my mind is that Leica is interesting nevertheless because of their S system which actually is also on top technology wise, but sure a bit limited in terms of flexibility - at least today.

The S2 doesn't fit on that view camera you seem to like, and it's smaller sensor would limit the use of a super wide image circle even if it did. It doesn't have a big bright waist level finder, and unlike my H2F or most any Mamiya camera, it can't shoot film. Technology on paper is one thing, actually having the stuff to use is another. If Hassey was slow to market with the H4D/60 then the S2 system is a snail compared to a rabbit. However, both companies have been slow to market with certain things for the same reason ... they want it right, and deserve credit for doing that.

All these systems are great systems, it always depends on what you really need. I would not buy pure technology leadership, if the system does not fit my needs - right?

So, As you can see, I can counter point each statement here (which is kinda fun ) ... but I think you should sell or trade all your Hasselblad gear and buy a Phase One system. Then in a few months you can post some other opinions, and sell the Phase system for a Leica S2 ... then in a few months ...


- Marc

[jlm]

"No existing H4D/60 has the double res LCD yet because the firmware hasn't been quite completed to enable it. So, hopefully we'll see how good it is in a month or so."

first I have heard of this, explains the lack of any comments on the new screen from any of the few H4D-60 posters, including D grover

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by Professional

And sometimes they buy according to reviews/recommendations or something else rather than needs.

Yep, and some buy without ever trying the gear themselves, only to find it doesn't meet their needs ... and then complain about it like it was the gear's fault.

-Marc

[johnnygoesdigital]

As an H4D owner whose had a few quirks with the first H4D and a few quirks with a prior H3D. I am ultimately satisfied with this camera. As mentioned before the customer service is the best. I know sometimes a few lemons sneak by, but I don't want to have to make lemonade when I need my camera at that moment! I don't care about the LCD screen, it's never an accurate representation of the exposure, it just uses more battery when the contrast is turned up. I wouldn't judge a camera based on that. Use the histogram on the top of the grip for a general overview. The sensor in the Leica is the Kodak KAF 37500, which some say, does not have the better higher ISO capability of the KAF 40000, used in the H4D/40. A rain cover will suffice my weather needs for now (even the S2 users should have one handy). The evolution of any camera will be partly based on user reports, we'll see what happens to Leica and the S2

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by jlm

"No existing H4D/60 has the double res LCD yet because the firmware hasn't been quite completed to enable it. So, hopefully we'll see how good it is in a month or so."

first I have heard of this, explains the lack of any comments on the new screen from any of the few H4D-60 posters, including D grover

All of the H4D/60s have the double res LCD hardware ... it just isn't enabled yet.

I suspect (but don't know) that a higher resolution LCD display presents any of the high meg back makers with a challenge. That is a lot of data to crunch into a LCD review, and the higher resolution could affect shooting/review speed. Remains to be seen if that is the case, and if they can balance it out. Pentax and Leica seem to have done it with their 40 meg MFD cameras, but admittedly 60 or 80 meg FF is another level.

Frankly, this is what I meant saying the meg race isn't everything. 40, 50, 60 meg is more than enough for all but the most demanding applications ... beyond that 50MS or 80 meg fits the rest. I'd rather see more versatility and utilitarian innovations ...

starting with the LCD so you can check focus. Apps that allow remote viewing and control such as those beginning to appear should be improved and become standard. More work-flow versatility in the software. More stable tethered transfers (Mac and the MFD companies seeing eye-to-eye more), more innovations like sensor plus that extend the use of the system more, continued improvement in higher ISO performance, etc., etc.

I'm sure we could all compile a list of our own.

-Marc

[Guy Mancuso]

Dual Cards
One wireless Card
Jpegs for at least for Ipad/Iphone wireless viewing
Bigger Higher Res LCD. Okay that is a given
Focus mask on LCD , like C1 with focus mask
Histo that TELLS you your a stop over idiot. Okay a beep or display that spells it out
Get RID of the crop viewfinders add magnification for the finder with dial it in back size.
Double lock mechanism for back removal.

I have more but that is another thread. LOL

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso

Dual Cards
One wireless Card
Jpegs for at least for Ipad/Iphone wireless viewing
Bigger Higher Res LCD. Okay that is a given
Focus mask on LCD , like C1 with focus mask
Histo that TELLS you your a stop over idiot. Okay a beep or display that spells it out
Get RID of the crop viewfinders add magnification for the finder with dial it in back size.
Double lock mechanism for back removal.

I have more but that is another thread. LOL

YES! Dual mirrored cards should be manditory ... even if it slows down capture time (which it shouldn't), and make it an option if it does. Don't care if they are CFs or not.

Hassey already has a big enough LCD ... but they should be much higher res so you can jump to 100% and scroll to check focus.

Hassey also already has the over/under exposure beep, but that's still not as good as the thin line histogram over-lay that the Leica DMR had ... IMO, it was the best ever

-Marc

[ptomsu]

@ Marc,

you will not see me sell my H system I rather might change my H3D against a H4D60

Having said that, I disagree with some of your answers,especially:

HTS - it is larger (or at least as large) as a Cambo WRS which I used myself during one of the workshops with great success. I own the HTS myself and I carry it always with me when I take my H equipment for a shoot, so I know what I am talking about. And it will never be able to bring the results you can achieve wit such a tech cam and a German lens (Rodenstock, Schneider etc) - period - unfortunately. This is something which Hasselblad themselves confirmed to me and having the results from the Cambo WRS in combination with P40+ and P45 I know what I am speaking about! None of the far east lens makers has managed to come close to these lenses. Same is true for Leica glass, if you like it or not.

Usage of the S2 - what I tried to say (maybe it was not clear) is, that a S2 with 2 or 3 lenses and a tech cam with maybe a P40+ or a P65+ will outperform any of the H combinations for sure. Just unfair to compare. S2 much more agile, faster, easier to handle (a no brainer for an old Leica shooter) and AF very fast. Tech cam for static shots and where you need it, in my case for landscapes.

AF - True Focus - man this is really a bummer! I usually use even DSLRs just with the center AF point, this is the way I shoot and the way I compose: focus, meter and then find the right composition - then shoot. I do agree that of course having some 51 AF points in a Nikon (or whatever number in a Canon) helps in doing fast dynamic AF shooting. But I can tell you one thing for sure - even that does not work satisfyingly enough because if you use a high speed tele wide open and just rely on your multipoint AF and shoot portraits of a hopefully moving and turning model in order to get out the static look of your pictures then just forget ANY multipoint AF. SO what does True focus mean for this type of exercise? Nothing, because with True AF you would never be close to follow a moving model fast enough - simply does not work. So what you can get in maximum is successful static compositions in portraits but nothing more. So TF is for sure helping in some circumstances, but overall it is a drop of water on hot stone - not solving ALL the AF issues which are still there today. Would I not buy it if I get it for free with any new Hasselblad I buy today - of course I would take it but be very careful what the real benefit is. Great if it works for you and your type of photography, for mine there are definitely less hits.

Did I forget to argue on any other points you made - maybe but I think you can read out of these 3 answers already what the facts are: not all photographers have the same needs and the same habits and processes to shoot. Does this make one more successful as another? For sure not! You have to know your equipment and be able to play it to the degree that you get the results you desire and/or need for customers.

Finally it is true at least for me, that I easily would give up things like TF if I could get the easiness of handling of a Leica camera. Would Hasselblad have brought 2 H4 models, one with TF and the other one wit just the operational controls as the S2, my decision which one to get would be a no brainer! See what I mean?

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

@ Marc,

you will not see me sell my H system I rather might change my H3D against a H4D60

Having said that, I disagree with some of your answers,especially:

HTS - it is larger (or at least as large) as a Cambo WRS which I used myself during one of the workshops with great success. I own the HTS myself and I carry it always with me when I take my H equipment for a shoot, so I know what I am talking about. And it will never be able to bring the results you can achieve wit such a tech cam and a German lens (Rodenstock, Schneider etc) - period - unfortunately. This is something which Hasselblad themselves confirmed to me and having the results from the Cambo WRS in combination with P40+ and P45 I know what I am speaking about! None of the far east lens makers has managed to come close to these lenses. Same is true for Leica glass, if you like it or not.

Usage of the S2 - what I tried to say (maybe it was not clear) is, that a S2 with 2 or 3 lenses and a tech cam with maybe a P40+ or a P65+ will outperform any of the H combinations for sure. Just unfair to compare. S2 much more agile, faster, easier to handle (a no brainer for an old Leica shooter) and AF very fast. Tech cam for static shots and where you need it, in my case for landscapes.

AF - True Focus - man this is really a bummer! I usually use even DSLRs just with the center AF point, this is the way I shoot and the way I compose: focus, meter and then find the right composition - then shoot. I do agree that of course having some 51 AF points in a Nikon (or whatever number in a Canon) helps in doing fast dynamic AF shooting. But I can tell you one thing for sure - even that does not work satisfyingly enough because if you use a high speed tele wide open and just rely on your multipoint AF and shoot portraits of a hopefully moving and turning model in order to get out the static look of your pictures then just forget ANY multipoint AF. SO what does True focus mean for this type of exercise? Nothing, because with True AF you would never be close to follow a moving model fast enough - simply does not work. So what you can get in maximum is successful static compositions in portraits but nothing more. So TF is for sure helping in some circumstances, but overall it is a drop of water on hot stone - not solving ALL the AF issues which are still there today. Would I not buy it if I get it for free with any new Hasselblad I buy today - of course I would take it but be very careful what the real benefit is. Great if it works for you and your type of photography, for mine there are definitely less hits.

Did I forget to argue on any other points you made - maybe but I think you can read out of these 3 answers already what the facts are: not all photographers have the same needs and the same habits and processes to shoot. Does this make one more successful as another? For sure not! You have to know your equipment and be able to play it to the degree that you get the results you desire and/or need for customers.

Finally it is true at least for me, that I easily would give up things like TF if I could get the easiness of handling of a Leica camera. Would Hasselblad have brought 2 H4 models, one with TF and the other one wit just the operational controls as the S2, my decision which one to get would be a no brainer! See what I mean?

Of course, dedicated fix element lenses will outperform internal focusing optics every time ... including Leica and Schneider as well as Zeiss, Fuji, Pentax, etc..

Just because you cannot shoot moving subjects with off-center focusing doesn't mean that no one can.

Your comments on TF make no sense to me ... if you are currently shooting an off-center subject using the center focus point, and then recompose, isn't that the same as TF?, except TF figures out the focus correction so it stays in focus, even to the far edge of the frame. Do you understand how TF works? Are you using a H4 camera?

BUT, if it isn't appropriate, I don't use it ... like any optional feature. So if you want it for something it's there, otherwise DON'T press the TF Lock button. No brainer.

Best of luck ...

-Marc

[John Black]

As Marc almost said, True Focus is not related to tracking. It allows you to center focus, lock focus and then recompose. The camera will then recalc focus based upon the change in pitch and yaw. It's really quite brilliant. Also,Hass' AF engine makes corrections for focus shift based upon the selected aperture for a given HC lens.

[tjv]

I would have thought that everyone would appreciate a higher res LCD, even if only to check 100% focus. I, too, couldn't care less about checking the colour or exposure of the captured image on anything other than a histogram, but the LCD should at least be an accurate and reliable indication of the focus point. Right?

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by fotografz

Of course, dedicated fix element lenses will outperform internal focusing optics every time ... including Leica and Schneider as well as Zeiss, Fuji, Pentax, etc..

Just because you cannot shoot moving subjects with off-center focusing doesn't mean that no one can.

Your comments on TF make no sense to me ... if you are currently shooting an off-center subject using the center focus point, and then recompose, isn't that the same as TF?, except TF figures out the focus correction so it stays in focus, even to the far edge of the frame. Do you understand how TF works? Are you using a H4 camera?

BUT, if it isn't appropriate, I don't use it ... like any optional feature. So if you want it for something it's there, otherwise DON'T press the TF Lock button. No brainer.

Best of luck ...

-Marc

I tried TF for several hours on a H4D camera - no worries. And I am not saying it is bad, but I wonder why people start commenting like that they could not shoot before and without TF ?????? Really odd.

Just my 5c.

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by tjv

I would have thought that everyone would appreciate a higher res LCD, even if only to check 100% focus. I, too, couldn't care less about checking the colour or exposure of the captured image on anything other than a histogram, but the LCD should at least be an accurate and reliable indication of the focus point. Right?

Absolutely! Without live-view on the LCD, it's the next best thing.

-Marc

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

I tried TF for several hours on a H4D camera - no worries. And I am not saying it is bad, but I wonder why people start commenting like that they could not shoot before and without TF ?????? Really odd.

Just my 5c.

Well, that is obviously an exaggeration that I haven't personally heard from anyone myself. However, the notion is probably rooted in the fact that MF DOF is more demanding then with FF 35mm ...just like it's less demanding on a crop frame 35mm and even less on an P&S sized sensor ... and as the MF digital sensors increase in size and relentlessly increase the meg count while reducing the pixel pitch ... inaccurate focus becomes more apparent.

Many MF shooters use manual focusing, or stop down more to cover the field-of-focus for off-center subjects ... and while AF has been a wonderful addition to the format, it has always suffered from the restriction of a center focus point while focusing on an off-center subject, especially when using a wider aperture. The more off-center and close to the camera the subject, the worse the problem ... more apparent when using wide to medium focal length lenses due to the severity of movement from the subject to the center of the frame. So, True Focus/Focus Lock is less useful with the 300mm lens, if it even makes much difference at all. I think David G. has actually said something to that effect somewhere on a Hassey forum. That said, I still use it with my 300mm to CMA.

35mm cameras were able to address the issue by placing focus points outside the center area for you to select ... but if you'll notice those points have always been placed fairly close to the center point, and never out to the edges of the viewfinder. Likewise, Phamamiya added a few focus points outside the center point but not very far out. I'd speculate that this is due to some restriction of existing technology, and how far away they can be.

Hasselblad leap-frogged the restriction with an elegant pitch & yaw based solution as mention by John Black above. So, you can focus on any area of the scene, even a subject at the farthest edge of the viewfinder, lock focus with TF, and recompose ... in a nano-second the camera calculates the adjustment to keep the off-center subject in critical focus. In practice, it is very fast and very accurate.

It does take a little practice at first, but not much. Like with manual focus, or center focus/recompose, or using an off-center focus point, you cannot sway in and out ... TF does not fix that. Nothing fixes that except excellent technique and/or stopping down more to cover the error.

Just my $20K worth

-Marc

[ptomsu]

Originally Posted by fotografz

Well, that is obviously an exaggeration that I haven't personally heard from anyone myself. However, the notion is probably rooted in the fact that MF DOF is more demanding then with FF 35mm ...just like it's less demanding on a crop frame 35mm and even less on an P&S sized sensor ... and as the MF digital sensors increase in size and relentlessly increase the meg count while reducing the pixel pitch ... inaccurate focus becomes more apparent.

Many MF shooters use manual focusing, or stop down more to cover the field-of-focus for off-center subjects ... and while AF has been a wonderful addition to the format, it has always suffered from the restriction of a center focus point while focusing on an off-center subject, especially when using a wider aperture. The more off-center and close to the camera the subject, the worse the problem ... more apparent when using wide to medium focal length lenses due to the severity of movement from the subject to the center of the frame. So, True Focus/Focus Lock is less useful with the 300mm lens, if it even makes much difference at all. I think David G. has actually said something to that effect somewhere on a Hassey forum. That said, I still use it with my 300mm to CMA.

35mm cameras were able to address the issue by placing focus points outside the center area for you to select ... but if you'll notice those points have always been placed fairly close to the center point, and never out to the edges of the viewfinder. Likewise, Phamamiya added a few focus points outside the center point but not very far out. I'd speculate that this is due to some restriction of existing technology, and how far away they can be.

Hasselblad leap-frogged the restriction with an elegant pitch & yaw based solution as mention by John Black above. So, you can focus on any area of the scene, even a subject at the farthest edge of the viewfinder, lock focus with TF, and recompose ... in a nano-second the camera calculates the adjustment to keep the off-center subject in critical focus. In practice, it is very fast and very accurate.

It does take a little practice at first, but not much. Like with manual focus, or center focus/recompose, or using an off-center focus point, you cannot sway in and out ... TF does not fix that. Nothing fixes that except excellent technique and/or stopping down more to cover the error.

Just my $20K worth

-Marc

Ok, TF is great! I agree! I only try to be careful to overvalue it!

Actually I would like to see TF in combination with multiple AF points in an MF camera. Why is it so hard to build an MF cam with at least 5 AF points? Or 11 like in the Olympus E3 or E5? One could actually buy such a solution from Olympus for example as they are selling their AF module as OEM. It of course would need some rework, but I do not understand MF camera vendors why they tend to reinvent the wheel.

I might consider upgrading my H3D39 to an H4D40, which seems to bring a number of advantages WRT speed and TF and newer sensor technology. I am still kind of hesitating to upgrade to a H4D60, as I do NOT want to handle that huge amount of data and actually do not need 60MP.

[jerome]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

Ok, TF is great! I agree! I only try to be careful to overvalue it!

Actually I would like to see TF in combination with multiple AF points in an MF camera. Why is it so hard to build an MF cam with at least 5 AF points? Or 11 like in the Olympus E3 or E5? One could actually buy such a solution from Olympus for example as they are selling their AF module as OEM. It of course would need some rework, but I do not understand MF camera vendors why they tend to reinvent the wheel.

I might consider upgrading my H3D39 to an H4D40, which seems to bring a number of advantages WRT speed and TF and newer sensor technology. I am still kind of hesitating to upgrade to a H4D60, as I do NOT want to handle that huge amount of data and actually do not need 60MP.

Hi,

I use TF on my H4D50, it's very useful, and really it's more convenient than AF points ! You just have to push TF button and let your Hassy do the job for you !

It's very effective

[doug]

Originally Posted by fotografz

.. Like with manual focus, or center focus/recompose, or using an off-center focus point, you cannot sway in and out ... TF does not fix that.

I find that my subject will sway in and out enough that re-composing after focussing doesn't work, no matter how quick or accurate the focussing is. Focus points miss the point, no matter how many there are. I need to be able to focus anywhere in the image area and not have to re-compose.

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

Ok, TF is great! I agree! I only try to be careful to overvalue it!

Actually I would like to see TF in combination with multiple AF points in an MF camera. Why is it so hard to build an MF cam with at least 5 AF points? Or 11 like in the Olympus E3 or E5? One could actually buy such a solution from Olympus for example as they are selling their AF module as OEM. It of course would need some rework, but I do not understand MF camera vendors why they tend to reinvent the wheel.

I might consider upgrading my H3D39 to an H4D40, which seems to bring a number of advantages WRT speed and TF and newer sensor technology. I am still kind of hesitating to upgrade to a H4D60, as I do NOT want to handle that huge amount of data and actually do not need 60MP.

IMO that is wise thinking. I'm debating the 60 upgrade myself. I have the H4D/40 already, and while handling big files isn't an issue I fret about, I do debate the value of going to 60 meg over my current CF39/MS studio camera. Generally, I don't need more than 40 meg unless in the studio shooting critical stuff, especially if it includes fabrics or clothing as the product. However, I don't shoot landscapes, and could see going to 60 meg single shot if I did ... like Jack did.

I wish there was more info on the recently announced 200 meg H4D/50 multi-shot step-module upgrade ... mostly how much that would cost above a H4D/50MS

Again, I think the difficulty is using multiple AF points for MFD is the physical size of the area to be covered. The Oly E3 AF area coverage works for a little sensor area ... but put that same AF point spread in a MFD viewfinder and it would be a relatively insignificant grouping in the center, and nearly useless for off-center subjects.

The other thing is that even with 35mm AF ... the outer AF points are no where near the sensitivity of the center AF point. Which is why the "re-inventing of the wheel" by Hasselblad was actually quite brilliant thinking since it only uses the sensitive center AF point for off-center focusing, and then calculates Pitch and Yaw to adjust the fine focusing when you reframe.

Now whether multiple AF points is possible with a new, wider ranging AF technology I have no idea. Probably would be significant R&D costs for a relatively small volume of MFD applications.

But I'd speculate that if anyone pulls that off it'll be Phase One because it would be an answer to the Hassey solution and blunt that advantage.

-Marc

[David Schneider]

Marc,

You know I'm a beginner's beginner when it comes to mf. But as much as I'd like a camera with more focusing options, I'd pretty happy with an old fashion split image focusing screen (preferably with center circle with 45 degree split). While it might take a tad longer to focus that af, at least I know I'm getting focus where I want it.

[Guy Mancuso]

Well to aid in knowing where your focus is, I refer back to my request be nice on the LCD there was a focus mask display. Basically it shows where your focus is right on the display. Now that would be trick and let you know you nailed it. I have not tried the new Hassy yet but it does sound interesting and more important useful. I do fine with the DF but there is always room for improvement on these systems.

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by David Schneider

Marc,

You know I'm a beginner's beginner when it comes to mf. But as much as I'd like a camera with more focusing options, I'd pretty happy with an old fashion split image focusing screen (preferably with center circle with 45 degree split). While it might take a tad longer to focus that af, at least I know I'm getting focus where I want it.

David, that is exactly what I have installed in my H2F. A Bright-Screen split diagonal with a large micro-prism collar. For a long time I was using Zeiss V manual focus lenses on the H2F camera to shoot film, and got that screen just for that purpose. I no longer use the V lenses, but I left the screen installed because I focus most tabletop manually anyway ... plus it helps focus lenses mounted to the HTS/1.5 which is manual focus. It's also a good double check that you did nail critical focus even when using AF. Either it snaps in clean or it doesn't. Easy to see.

I mostly use AF with true Focus for people work, like weddings, portraits and such, where I off-center compose a lot. My old eyes aren't what they used to be and AF helps a lot in more active shooting conditions. Better AF is why I swapped out of Contax 645 to The H.

-Marc

BTW, these screens aren't inexpensive ... but are on sale for $280. right now.

http://brightscreenstore.com/store/i...43b1eea7744f22

[David Grover / Phase One]

Originally Posted by jlm

"No existing H4D/60 has the double res LCD yet because the firmware hasn't been quite completed to enable it. So, hopefully we'll see how good it is in a month or so."

first I have heard of this, explains the lack of any comments on the new screen from any of the few H4D-60 posters, including D grover

I have actually mentioned that quite a few times myself.

This firmware to drive the screen at a higher resolution is finished and will be packaged in a new firmware for the H4D60 which includes a few other things.

[David Grover / Phase One]

Originally Posted by ptomsu

Ok, TF is great! I agree! I only try to be careful to overvalue it!

Actually I would like to see TF in combination with multiple AF points in an MF camera. Why is it so hard to build an MF cam with at least 5 AF points? Or 11 like in the Olympus E3 or E5? One could actually buy such a solution from Olympus for example as they are selling their AF module as OEM. It of course would need some rework, but I do not understand MF camera vendors why they tend to reinvent the wheel.

I might consider upgrading my H3D39 to an H4D40, which seems to bring a number of advantages WRT speed and TF and newer sensor technology. I am still kind of hesitating to upgrade to a H4D60, as I do NOT want to handle that huge amount of data and actually do not need 60MP.

Why not put in 5 AF points? Because they would be mostly useless.

The further you place the points out from the centre their accuracy tolerance drops. Not so much of a problem on 35mm (although there are plenty of stories which proves the consistency of the outer points is not as good as the centre)

On an MF camera they would need to be a long way out to be useful.

I also think on the Pentax the outer points also don't work in portrait mode as these are enabled only in landscape mode.

D

[Will Ophuis]

my weathersealing!

[David Schneider]

Originally Posted by fotografz

David, that is exactly what I have installed in my H2F. A Bright-Screen split diagonal with a large micro-prism collar.

Marc,

Will that Bright Screen work with your old H3d2/39?

My eyes got old on me too. True Focus might be a help, but that's not coming to my house for sometime. lol. But there are times I'd like to manually focus and without a split screen, it's a time consuming pain. Easier with mf than dslr, but still a pain, especially in low light.

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by David Schneider

Marc,

Will that Bright Screen work with your old H3d2/39?

My eyes got old on me too. True Focus might be a help, but that's not coming to my house for sometime. lol. But there are times I'd like to manually focus and without a split screen, it's a time consuming pain. Easier with mf than dslr, but still a pain, especially in low light.

It should work on any H camera. The screens are inter-changable.

Mine doesn't have the 39 sensor crop lines etched on it ... it was originally for shooting film. Don't know if you can get that custom made from BrightScreen. I just allow for it when using the 39MS back.

-Marc

[David Schneider]

Marc,

If you get a chance sometime, pop it it your H4d40 and see what it looks like when you auto focus and manual focus.

I use Bright Screen once. Seem like competent people.

[yaya]

Originally Posted by Will Ophuis

my weathersealing!

Or you can spend a few more Shekels and try the Kata E-702 or E-704/705:-)

[salaamss]

I am always amazed at these discussions comparing S2 with H4D. Surprisingly, you find no photo comparisons - though many are fast to point out they own/use both. Many seem to be talented photographers with great galleries to prove it... Do they really need the tiniest, almost undistinguishable differences in IQ - that would probably swing either way on any given situation??? I have an H4D31 and always wonder what the H4D40 would really give me in terms of solid IQ advantage. I also would love to try out an S2, because it would seem more of an outdoor camera - which is what I wish to concentrate on. I have lots to learn from people like you - but don't seem to get much scientific evidence to help me on my decisions to upgrade/change.

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by salaamss

I am always amazed at these discussions comparing S2 with H4D. Surprisingly, you find no photo comparisons - though many are fast to point out they own/use both. Many seen to be talented photographers with great galleries to prove it... Do they really need the tiniest, almost undistinguishable differences in IQ - that would probably swing either way on any given situation??? I have an H4D31 and always wonder what the H4D41 would really give me in terms of solid IQ advantage. I also would love to try out an S2, because it would seem more of an outdoor camera - which is what I wish to concentrate on. I have lots to learn from people like you - but don't seem to get much scientific evidence to help me on my decisions to upgrade/change.

Actually, I've posted some direct comparison shots including large crops ... but they were more about focusing than pixel level Image Quality. I haven't had the S2P long enough to make any declarations in pure IQ comparisons to my H4D/40 ... it takes awhile to zero in on processing techniques with a new camera ... where I've used the H4D/40 for a much longer time.

Image Quality and Image Qualities are two related but different evaluations IMO. One is more quantifiable and the other more subjective. The two get mixed up quite frequently.

IMO, the differences between the H4D/40 and Leica S2 are much more about the physical properties of the camera itself as it relates to the photographer's needs. Any minor differences in IQ most likely will play second fiddle to these considerations. If a versatile modular camera with more advanced AF for off-center compositions, a vast array of accessories and lenses including a T/S adapter, and a much more effective tethered option and a proprietary, highly tuned software is what the photographer needs then the H4D/40 is worth a look. If 35mm DSLR type handling, more mobility, less versatility, lenses that require less proprietary software corrections, and superior weather sealing better fits the photographer's specific needs, than the S2 is worth a look.

Personally, I've decided to employ the Playtex Bra strategy of "Lift and Separate", and decided to up the H4D kit to a H4D/60 ... which will win the IQ contest hands down ... so when needed it is there with all its accessories (like a waist level finder and T/S unit), versatility (like use on a view camera and superior tethered use in studio), and vast lens choices. When all that clutter is not needed, the S2P will be the camera of choice. However, not all photographers need this much versatility for the range of work they do ... where for others it is more about Horses For Courses.

-Marc

[xpixel]

Originally Posted by salaamss

I am always amazed at these discussions comparing S2 with H4D.

I have the impression that here is 95% the question about IQ of this and that MF equipment. BUT rarely somebody speaks about the handling of an MF camera. I have compared the S2 with a Mamya 645DF with a Leaf back. Sorry guys the workflow and handling of a cam with a back is at least for me very old-fashioned or to put it plenty behind the times. In terms of the testesd Mamya very inelegant. An S2 in contrast is a real beauty to use, in the studio as well as outdoor.
I agree if somebody has a lot of time and patience he could use a camera with a back but never for me...:-)

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by xpixel

I have the impression that here is 95% the question about IQ of this and that MF equipment. BUT rarely somebody speaks about the handling of an MF camera. I have compared the S2 with a Mamya 645DF with a Leaf back. Sorry guys the workflow and handling of a cam with a back is at least for me very old-fashioned or to put it plenty behind the times. In terms of the testesd Mamya very inelegant. An S2 in contrast is a real beauty to use, in the studio as well as outdoor.
I agree if somebody has a lot of time and patience he could use a camera with a back but never for me...:-)

Lack of familiarity breeds contempt.

What really amazes me is how anyone can evaluate any of this stuff without becoming really familiar with it. Hard to do unfortunately, so we use previous experiences as a gauge and never fully explore the actual handling and workflow of any given camera until we own it.

I cannot speak to the Mamiya Leaf combo other than the much older version I once owned. I can say for a certainty that the control layout/access of the Hasselblad H4D is light years ahead of the S2 ... which I've used long enough now to properly compare. So the S2 may look more elegant and feel nice in hand, but actually shooting with it is a totally different matter.

I could go on for many more paragraphs, but suffice it to say that I do not confuse beauty with brains when it comes to actually shooting photographs.

But the S2 is young, and many things can be done with firmware over time to speed things up. So let's not kick the legs out from under the thoroughbred colt before it has a chance to stand up and learn to run ...

-Marc

[David Klepacki]

Originally Posted by fotografz

Personally, I've decided to employ the Playtex Bra strategy of "Lift and Separate", and decided to up the H4D kit to a H4D/60 ... which will win the IQ contest hands down ... so when needed it is there with all its accessories (like a waist level finder and T/S unit), versatility (like use on a view camera and superior tethered use in studio), and vast lens choices. When all that clutter is not needed, the S2P will be the camera of choice. However, not all photographers need this much versatility for the range of work they do ... where for others it is more about Horses For Courses.

-Marc

I also agree with this conclusion. I shot with the S2 last week and I was quite impressed. In the "lower" resolution category of about 40MP, the Leica S2 seems to have more to offer than the Hasselblad H4D-40. For me, there is no better vote of confidence for a camera system than someone like Marc who opens their own checkbook and maybe even pays a premium in their final choice. So, yes, when the "clutter" of a larger MFDB camera like the H4D is not really needed, the Leica S2 system seems to be a wonderful system to use.

Marc, thanks again for all your comments and feedback here on GetDPI, and good luck with your systems. On another note, you might end up finding that the H4D-60 may not be enough resolution increase to make a difference compared to your S2. Since you have already "lifted and separated" your camera systems, you might want to take a look at the new 80MP backs from Leaf and hopefully soon from Phase One.

David

[Shelby Lewis]

Originally Posted by David Klepacki

On another note, you might end up finding that the H4D-60 may not be enough resolution increase to make a difference compared to your S2. Since you have already "lifted and separated" your camera systems, you might want to take a look at the new 80MP backs from Leaf and hopefully soon from Phase One.

David

... and here I am all excited about my forthcoming foray into MF at (gasp!) 28MP.

[David Klepacki]

Hey Shelby, we all started out this way. You will be considering 40MP in no time, you just don't realize it yet. There is a reason for Jack and Guy quoting Dante's warning for this forum.

[fotografz]

Originally Posted by David Klepacki

I also agree with this conclusion. I shot with the S2 last week and I was quite impressed. In the "lower" resolution category of about 40MP, the Leica S2 seems to have more to offer than the Hasselblad H4D-40. For me, there is no better vote of confidence for a camera system than someone like Marc who opens their own checkbook and maybe even pays a premium in their final choice. So, yes, when the "clutter" of a larger MFDB camera like the H4D is not really needed, the Leica S2 system seems to be a wonderful system to use.

Marc, thanks again for all your comments and feedback here on GetDPI, and good luck with your systems. On another note, you might end up finding that the H4D-60 may not be enough resolution increase to make a difference compared to your S2. Since you have already "lifted and separated" your camera systems, you might want to take a look at the new 80MP backs from Leaf and hopefully soon from Phase One.

David

No thanks David, a much larger sensor size, and 60 meg are more than enough "lifting and separating" ... and it comes on a H4D camera

I also do not agree that the S2 seems to offer than the H4D/40... so please stop editorializing on my behalf. They are just different platforms that both deliver good results.

The competitiveness here is getting ridiculous.

-Marc

[David Klepacki]

Originally Posted by fotografz

No thanks David, a much larger sensor size, and 60 meg are more than enough "lifting and separating" ... and it comes on a H4D camera

I also do not agree that the S2 seems to offer than the H4D/40... so please stop editorializing on my behalf. They are just different platforms that both deliver good results.

The competitiveness here is getting ridiculous.

-Marc

Marc, please do not read more into this than what it is. I was being sincere in my comments, since you seem to be the kind of person that is interested in pursuing excellent equipment and image quality. If that were not the case, you would have no reason to even contemplate a Leica S2 over what you already have.

I do not intend to create any "competition" here. I merely congratulate you on your decision in camera systems, and I am in fact in agreement with your reasoning to choose the Leica S2 to fill your needs. I think you did a great job investigating the strengths and weaknesses of these systems on this forum and it sets a good example for other photographers who may be contemplating the purchase of a 40MP camera system, whether it be a H4D or S2 or anything else.

[KeithL]

Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis

... and here I am all excited about my forthcoming foray into MF at (gasp!) 28MP.

Hey, 28MP blows me out of the water!