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Old 17th June 2012   #1
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p65+ vs leaf 10

Hi everybody, I need your advice on choosing a right back.
I do a landscape photography mostly.
The 2:3 ratio of the leaf 10 sounds as an advantage to me
P65+ seems to be better weather sealed unit.
Leaf has a better screen and controls
P65+ has slightly better dynamic range

My local dealer has a promotion ($21k) on pre-owned p65+ until the end of june, which is almost 5k cheaper then leaf 10.
What do you think is the best choice for the money?

Thank you
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Old 17th June 2012   #2
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

I personally would go with the P65+, that is mainly considering I am a Phase user (P45+) and went through the whole comparison of Leaf Vs Phase.

I would say the main consideration is if you are shooting landscapes, the P65+ will be better suited for this task, the leaf aptus backs have a vent in the side with a fan in it to cool the back, the phase one back has heat sink cooling, and no moving parts, thus meaning less chance of failure and more chance of working properly. The aptus backs have annoying screens and controls, where as phase just focuses on the basics which are all you need in my experience. Set the WB, ISO, and you are good to go.

The P65+ files can be cropped to 2x3 as well. I'd say go for that then spend the 5k savings on some lenses or other accessories
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Old 17th June 2012   #3
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

Per this post on this forum, your dealer could be at 20K for the preowned P65+ , as that is the deal from Phase One with 1 year of warranty. This is a Phase One sponsored price point as I understand it.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium...e-backs-2.html

What are they adding for the additional 1K?

As for your decision, the P65+ is an excellent back, Dxomark score of 89 vs 91 on the IQ180. After using the IQ160 now for 8 months, I am a believer in the Dalsa Chips. IQ160 and P65+ are using the same chip. Amazing Dynamic range, much better than my P45+, in both highlights and shadows.

Paul
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Old 17th June 2012   #4
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

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Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
Per this post on this forum, your dealer could be at 20K for the preowned P65+ , as that is the deal from Phase One with 1 year of warranty. This is a Phase One sponsored price point as I understand it.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium...e-backs-2.html

What are they adding for the additional 1K?

As for your decision, the P65+ is an excellent back, Dxomark score of 89 vs 91 on the IQ180. After using the IQ160 now for 8 months, I am a believer in the Dalsa Chips. IQ160 and P65+ are using the same chip. Amazing Dynamic range, much better than my P45+, in both highlights and shadows.

Paul
Just curious as to why you think that it's that much of a difference over the Kodak chip in the P45+, also what is the longest exposure you can manage with that? I love doing 10-15 minute exposures on my P45+ and that's why I still use it.
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Old 17th June 2012   #5
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

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Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post

What are they adding for the additional 1K?


Paul
I'm in Canada, I guess we have to pay a premium on everything we buy
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Old 17th June 2012   #6
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

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Originally Posted by Zerimar View Post
Just curious as to why you think that it's that much of a difference over the Kodak chip in the P45+, also what is the longest exposure you can manage with that? I love doing 10-15 minute exposures on my P45+ and that's why I still use it.
I've been having just that internal conversation these past couple of weeks (and with my dealer much to his annoyance!). Do I keep the P45+ or take this great opportunity to move to the P65+ with it's different/better (more Dynamic Range, more pixels, better color analysis). It's about a 9K out of pocket expense. I don't really do many long exposures so my equation is harder than yours...

As a non-pro, that is a lot of change... I'm really having a hard time with it.
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Old 17th June 2012   #7
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

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I've been having just that internal conversation these past couple of weeks (and with my dealer much to his annoyance!). Do I keep the P45+ or take this great opportunity to move to the P65+ with it's different/better (more Dynamic Range, more pixels, better color analysis). It's about a 9K out of pocket expense. I don't really do many long exposures so my equation is harder than yours...

As a non-pro, that is a lot of change... I'm really having a hard time with it.
What do you think would help your photography more, having a P65+ or spending 9000 and going on a nice vacation and taking pictures with your not too shabby P45+

Or you could get more lenses, lighting, support, and accessories, or a downpayment on a new car

I'm not sure for this time having the 9k being worth the jump of 20mp and a slightly better dynamic range. I suppose Sensor plus and the FF 645 chip are also compelling…

Back to the OPs options! Phase seems the sure candidate
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Old 17th June 2012   #8
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

Zerimar:

Good question. I used the P45+ for close to 4 years. I was never able to get a shot with sky/clouds not having blown highlights unless I underexposed by as much as 1.5 to 2 stops. Depending on the light. This is at iso50. Even with the latest firmware/and controller updates I never liked how sensitive the P45+ was. Plus when you underexposed for the sky, most times the shadows were too noisy, to my liking. Thus I most times would bracket my shots.

The first thing I noticed after working with a P65+ and then the 160 was the difference in DR. Much more room in the exposure, most times for me I am able to work up a single exposure. You just have more room to work with IMO.
You can see it in the Dxomark scores also between the P45+ and P65+.

I thought I would miss the longer exposures, as I commonly shot my P45+ at 45min to 1 hour for night work. However I was using the Mamiya 35mm or 28mm at apertures ranging from F3.5 (35mm) to F5 and these two lenses are just too soft in these apertures. I have switched to 35mm DSLR for my night work, just easier to work with, better battery life, and similar or better overall noise. After spending a few months in the field with the 160, I really find I don't miss the P45+ at all. The results I am able to get with the Dalsa sensor work better for me. Just one viewpoint.

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Old 17th June 2012   #9
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

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Originally Posted by Zerimar View Post
the leaf aptus backs have a vent in the side with a fan in it to cool the back, the phase one back has heat sink cooling, and no moving parts, thus meaning less chance of failure and more chance of working properly. The aptus backs have annoying screens and controls, where as phase just focuses on the basics which are all you need in my experience. Set the WB, ISO, and you are good to go.
The vent/ fan is an urban myth as it has never been considered to be an issue in 12 years since the Valeo was introduced, unless obviously if you pour water into the vent...

Re screens/ controls I guess this is a matter of personal preference but on the Aptus you can also "Set the WB, ISO, and you are good to go"...

Cheers yair
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Old 17th June 2012   #10
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

The user interface is much a matter of taste.

I like the more graphic Aptus interfaces. To me a good image review, 100% focus check and blinking highlights are valuable features for landscape photography, and Leaf could do that already in the first Aptus series. I'm not sure how P65+ screen and user interface works with that (haven't used it myself). I would suggest to compare user interfaces and not only image quality.

I don't think any DR difference that may exist will be significant. Just make sure you expose close to saturation, which again the user interface (histogram, highlight blinkies) will help you with. I don't think any MF camera today have so much more DR than any other that it alters your workflow. If there was a camera with 2-3 more stops up to saturation then it would be a difference, but that's not the case, there are just minor differences in how noisy underexposed areas are.

If you really like wide formats, the Aptus 10 seems like a good choice to me. Price will be a factor though of course...
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Old 18th June 2012   #11
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

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The user interface is much a matter of taste.

I like the more graphic Aptus interfaces. To me a good image review, 100% focus check and blinking highlights are valuable features for landscape photography, and Leaf could do that already in the first Aptus series. I'm not sure how P65+ screen and user interface works with that (haven't used it myself). I would suggest to compare user interfaces and not only image quality.

I don't think any DR difference that may exist will be significant. Just make sure you expose close to saturation, which again the user interface (histogram, highlight blinkies) will help you with. I don't think any MF camera today have so much more DR than any other that it alters your workflow. If there was a camera with 2-3 more stops up to saturation then it would be a difference, but that's not the case, there are just minor differences in how noisy underexposed areas are.

If you really like wide formats, the Aptus 10 seems like a good choice to me. Price will be a factor though of course...
Having used both the P+ series backs and the Aptus-II series backs, I can say for certain that the Aptus is being undersold in this discussion. The P+ backs, for instance, have a completely worthless screen. Previewing the image after it has been taken is essentially impossible until the images are downloaded to a computer. The Aptus, on the other hand, easily allows for 100 percent focus checking, and has a nice, on-screen histogram.

Between the backs, there really are only a few real advantages the P+ backs hold -- all of them residing in the realm of IQ, and not in usability. If you're shooting with a technical camera, the Aptus-II is, as far as I'm concerned, exponentially better than the P+. The only feature the P+ truly holds over the Aptus, in my eyes, is the fact that it can expose for longer than 32 seconds, while the Aptus has a software limitation imposed.

This is coming from someone who has owned and used both P+ and Aptus-II series backs, again -- and kept the Aptus.
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Old 18th June 2012   #12
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

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Originally Posted by coulombic View Post
Having used both the P+ series backs and the Aptus-II series backs, I can say for certain that the Aptus is being undersold in this discussion. The P+ backs, for instance, have a completely worthless screen. Previewing the image after it has been taken is essentially impossible until the images are downloaded to a computer. The Aptus, on the other hand, easily allows for 100 percent focus checking, and has a nice, on-screen histogram.

Between the backs, there really are only a few real advantages the P+ backs hold -- all of them residing in the realm of IQ, and not in usability. If you're shooting with a technical camera, the Aptus-II is, as far as I'm concerned, exponentially better than the P+. The only feature the P+ truly holds over the Aptus, in my eyes, is the fact that it can expose for longer than 32 seconds, while the Aptus has a software limitation imposed.

This is coming from someone who has owned and used both P+ and Aptus-II series backs, again -- and kept the Aptus.
Gabe, you not making it easy for me
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Old 19th June 2012   #13
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

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Gabe, you not making it easy for me
Hah, it's really not an easy decision.

Like many, I would suggest you try both before committing to a system. While the Phase might offer incrementally better IQ (a fairly negligible 4Mp advantage), the ergonomics and general functionality of the Aptus-II exceeds the P+ in spades. If you're shooting with a 645DF, this is essentially meaningless, but if you're shooting with a technical camera, this can be a fairly big deal, as it's not always easy to tell if you've nailed your correct focus point, or if you've tilted too much.

That said, the Aptus-II is finicky by comparison to the P+. It doesn't like many CF cards other than San Disk Extreme Pro cards. While it is fully supported by C1, I find updating the firmware, still to be a PITA, as the camera will oddly disconnect over and over before actually working. P+? Never had this issue. P+ has a robust ability to format CF cards in the camera, and shoot essentially whatever kind of CF card you're using. The Aptus-II CF cards need to be prepared on a computer. Most all of the documentation and support for the Aptus-II is extensively Mac-friendly. Coming from a PC-user, this annoys the hell out of me. That said, the files themselves work seamlessly with C1, and updating the firmware really isn't a common endeavor. And if you shoot exclusively with San Disk Extreme Pro cads, you'll never have an issue with Leaf.

I also have issues getting the colors "right" with the Leaf back. While there are literally dozens of profiles/options available, without a Mac and Leaf Capture, it is not possible to customize the color profiles of the camera. Usually auto white balance is fine. However, if you use daylight/tungsten/etc., they will absolutely be uselessly wrong (would be nice to be able to fix this issue without a Mac.).

With all of my gripes out of the way, I still prefer the Aptus-II, due to its increased functionality. I am, however, greatly tempted to ditch it for a Credo, as I speculate most all of my concerns will be absolved at that point.
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Old 19th June 2012   #14
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Re: p65+ vs leaf 10

.02$ for the Leaf. Coming from a P20, originally found the Leaf AFI II 7 to be confusing and too many options. Just couldn't get the profiling straight. But a year later, its turning out to be pretty much rock solid, the choices of profiles is really quite delightful, and images that never seemed possible are just falling out of the back. Never had a problem with cards, only a few issues when the battery is low. Also, if you can get the rotating sensor, there is no comparison. Consider it a deal point.
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