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H5D-200C

jduncan

Active member
Hi,

Don't seem to be on the forums just yet.

Hasselblad just introduced a MS version of the H5D-50c.
Consisten lighting is very important for MS backs and in the pursuit of top image quality low iso is mandatory.

But as a flexible tool that can shoot high iso and extreme high resolution the new machine is interesting.

This almost implies that a >=48x36mm Sony sensor is not that close to release.

Forgot the link:
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/4808915/h5d-200c ms_datasheet_en_v2.pdf

Notice that they did not toke new pictures, the document shows images from the H5D-200MS bad.

Best regards,

J. Duncan
 

gazwas

Active member
Sounds like a dreamy product. The difference between single and multi shot is still significant so the Sony chip must deliver amazing results with 4 or 6 shot.
 

gazwas

Active member
I'm not sure I get the point. MS is studio based is it not? Why the need for high iso?
You could shoot MS on location for interiors? The detail differences and noise levels in the blacks (H4D-50MS) is excellent and as said above its also single shot if required.
 

jduncan

Active member
Sounds like a dreamy product. The difference between single and multi shot is still significant so the Sony chip must deliver amazing results with 4 or 6 shot.

Almost.
I can't understand why Sonny did not went for a larger sensor. But that is what we have.
The reviews show that the CCD are still winning in terms of color separation and rendition (the tests are for Phase and 645Z) that could prove to be a disadvantage against CCD with product: Color is fundamental Dynamic range from Canon and up it's more than enough. Let see how it plays.
But I agree if it's priced right it could be a very interesting tool.

Best regards,
J. Duncan
 
Almost.
I can't understand why Sonny did not went for a larger sensor. But that is what we have.
It's the same reason why there are so few large sensors in general - it's very expensive to make them. I can imagine Sony wanting to make bigger sensors only if they see a market for it, and for that you need to test the demand first. Seeing as almost every major maker of medium format has adopted the Sony sensor, it could prove favorable to further investment, but in no way would they go into uncharted waters head first.

The reviews show that the CCD are still winning in terms of color separation and rendition (the tests are for Phase and 645Z) that could prove to be a disadvantage against CCD with product: Color is fundamental
For the time being, the two technologies still fill different niches, if you only ever shoot at ISO100 or less, then CCD is for you, but if you often wished to have access to higher ISO levels, than CMOS might do it for you instead. Keep in mind that CCD sensors will only have superior color rendition up to ISO200 at most, but anything past that is going to look better on CMOS, since it retains dynamic range and image fidelity better as ISO increases.

Dynamic range from Canon and up it's more than enough. Let see how it plays.
DR from Canon is more than enough... I don't remember hearing that since the 5Dmk2 first came out. 11.5 stops of DR is fine, I suppose, if you can control the DR of your scene, like in a studio setup, but for landscape and architecture, which is a good chunk of the high-end camera market, you can never have enough DR.
 

jduncan

Active member
It's the same reason why there are so few large sensors in general - it's very expensive to make them. I can imagine Sony wanting to make bigger sensors only if they see a market for it, and for that you need to test the demand first. Seeing as almost every major maker of medium format has adopted the Sony sensor, it could prove favorable to further investment, but in no way would they go into uncharted waters head first.


For the time being, the two technologies still fill different niches, if you only ever shoot at ISO100 or less, then CCD is for you, but if you often wished to have access to higher ISO levels, than CMOS might do it for you instead. Keep in mind that CCD sensors will only have superior color rendition up to ISO200 at most, but anything past that is going to look better on CMOS, since it retains dynamic range and image fidelity better as ISO increases.


DR from Canon is more than enough... I don't remember hearing that since the 5Dmk2 first came out. 11.5 stops of DR is fine, I suppose, if you can control the DR of your scene, like in a studio setup, but for landscape and architecture, which is a good chunk of the high-end camera market, you can never have enough DR.
Agree almost at 100% with you. The Canon DR if enough if we are talking product. That reference was just to MS backs. But you make me realize that in architecture extra DR is super useful for open windows etc. Some people use MS for architecture so you are right.

The issue about the price is related to yield, number of chips per wafer and the limits of the steppers. I believe that Sony could have produced bigger chips using the same number of exposures.
If they are using something similar to this (in terms of aperture size)

Nikon | Precision Equipment | ArF Immersion Scanner NSR-S630D

It will be a double exposure ( Sonny sensor is 43.8 × 32.9 mm)

I believe that a 51mm x 33mm (56MP+) will be easy and not much more expensive to manufacture.

The resulting resolution will be 9630 x 6200 pixels (60MP) using the same technology they use or 10426 x 6726 (70MP) pixels using a D800 derived chip.

Notice that the 60MP chip will be pretty attractive offering 30% more linear resolution than the D810 with bigger better pixels.

If they are using other common maximum size like 22 x22 mm, they are at 4 exposures and the same 4 exposures could create a 44 x 44 mm square sensor (a 68MP chip)
Notice that the current sensor size seems sensitive with either type of stepper.


Best regards,
J. Duncan
 

gazwas

Active member
I believe that a 51mm x 33mm (56MP+) will be easy and not much more expensive to manufacture.
But if you are Sony and you know non of your competition have a product to equal yours (no sensor for Canon 1ds3 (2007 :eek:) replacement on the horizon) why offer all you've got in one hit when you could drag this chip tech out for years. Phase, Hasselblad, Pentax must be screaming for a larger chip and Sony probably know this.

How many IQ250 owners would trade up to a 1.1 crop back in 6-12 months and them again for a full frame Sony chipped back when they release that in 2 years time...... Quite a few I imagine.
 
I believe that a 51mm x 33mm (56MP+) will be easy and not much more expensive to manufacture.
Well, unless someone here works in the Sony imaging department, I don't think we'll know for sure how easy it is for them to bring a new product out. Sony is a fairly large corporation, but to make a sensor in a new size and resolution would mean retooling one of their chip assembly lines to produce only that type of chip, it's not like they can just decide to put out a few chips if they feel like it.

And all of that means that they must sell enough chips in the short-term to recoup R&D, manufacturing, and software/firmware development. I have no doubt that a lot of people would want a camera with that kind of technology, but from Sony's business standpoint our idea of "a lot" might not be enough. Who really knows? Until recently, people were expecting Canon to make a move into MF more then anyone else, and all of a sudden everyone gets beaten to the punch with Sony making the a7 series and a CMOS MF sensor within a year.
 

modator

Member
Hello,
I agree with Kolor-Pikker, the history of chip developments tell this, plus the business of MF camera is very low considering the market of today, even if they reduce the price of the system like the new CMOS MF Pentax I think there are not many interested in it...
I think this newer cmos chip from Sony can stand in the field for 3 or 4 Years without any improvement on it, maybe arrive some other cameras based on it but nothing else.
About the debate against color rendition etc. to me it's the same and in many case better than ccd, I've read an article from Luminous-Landscape (The Phase One IQ250 CMOS Fully Realized) that analyze this argument for the IQ250 and they say the color are wonderful too..
Who knows how many Year of development and research it take to Sony for producing a sensor that stand on the high level of IQ and performance of a market where professionals pay more than a car for a digital back ?
Best regards, Domenico.
 

jduncan

Active member
Well, unless someone here works in the Sony imaging department, I don't think we'll know for sure how easy it is for them to bring a new product out. Sony is a fairly large corporation, but to make a sensor in a new size and resolution would mean retooling one of their chip assembly lines to produce only that type of chip, it's not like they can just decide to put out a few chips if they feel like it.

And all of that means that they must sell enough chips in the short-term to recoup R&D, manufacturing, and software/firmware development. I have no doubt that a lot of people would want a camera with that kind of technology, but from Sony's business standpoint our idea of "a lot" might not be enough. Who really knows? Until recently, people were expecting Canon to make a move into MF more then anyone else, and all of a sudden everyone gets beaten to the punch with Sony making the a7 series and a CMOS MF sensor within a year.

Hi,

There is no need to retool. Did you follow my Math? they are already using multiple exposures. If producing chips of different sizes required retooling will have no pure FAB business. That is the reason I show two possible scenarios with two different steppers (really typical aperture sizes).

In the other hand, I believe that Gazwas is right on the money. Why will Sony give them the larger chip when they can drag their feet(1), do the MF experiment and, if it goes well, force them to upgrade?

A solid Business argument.

Best regards,
J. Duncan

1) Sony will save a little due to the number of chips per wafer.
 

RVB

Member
Hi,

There is no need to retool. Did you follow my Math? they are already using multiple exposures. If producing chips of different sizes required retooling will have no pure FAB business. That is the reason I show two possible scenarios with two different steppers (really typical aperture sizes).

In the other hand, I believe that Gazwas is right on the money. Why will Sony give them the larger chip when they can drag their feet(1), do the MF experiment and, if it goes well, force them to upgrade?

A solid Business argument.

Best regards,
J. Duncan

1) Sony will save a little due to the number of chips per wafer.
Recently I had a chat with a Phase dealer in Europe who told me that there will be a cmos successor to the IQ280 (53.7 x 40.4) in two years..

Hopefully there is,I would love to see Such a product...

Rob
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Hopefully, this successor will be more friendly with current tech camera lenses for movements, unlike the current IQ250. Also really curious who the sensor manufacturer will be? Sony, Dalsa? other?

60Mp would be fine for me.

Paul
 

tjv

Active member
I'm going to start a rumour that the above mentioned Sony sensor measuring 44mm square is going to be implemented in a new Hasselblad back, for introduction at Photokina next month. If I wish it hard enough, it's surely to come true.
 

jduncan

Active member
I'm going to start a rumour that the above mentioned Sony sensor measuring 44mm square is going to be implemented in a new Hasselblad back, for introduction at Photokina next month. If I wish it hard enough, it's surely to come true.

Keep going you never know ;)

J. Duncan
 

tjv

Active member
Well, hey. The Hasselblad slogan for this years Photokina is "Back to the Future".
I haven't seen a pig fly before, but I'll keep an eye out from mid-September!
 

fotografz

Well-known member
But if you are Sony and you know non of your competition have a product to equal yours (no sensor for Canon 1ds3 (2007 :eek:) replacement on the horizon) why offer all you've got in one hit when you could drag this chip tech out for years. Phase, Hasselblad, Pentax must be screaming for a larger chip and Sony probably know this.

How many IQ250 owners would trade up to a 1.1 crop back in 6-12 months and them again for a full frame Sony chipped back when they release that in 2 years time...... Quite a few I imagine.
I think you have an optimistic view of the whole MFD segment. These removable back cameras cost an arm and both legs, lose value swiftly, and continue to stay in the rarified price ranges even in the face of plunging demand and increasing competition from FF 35mm cameras that'll do 90% of what a MFD is capable of.

For years I had a Hasselblad Multi-Shot camera, and while I could shoot it as a single shot, the only time I did was when I was perfecting the composition and lighting prior to taking the MS image. Otherwise it was an impractical solution as a single shot camera … and I sure as hell wouldn't have subjected the high precision micro-step back to the rigors of mobile single shot location work.

CMOS may now allow more versatile use due to higher ISO performance, but in a practical sense a Nikon D800 (or whatever is next), will out high ISO it anyway, so a MFD that is more dedicated to its task seems the better idea.

In the case of Hasselblad, the camera is specifically designed more for studio work or planed location stuff, especially using lighting. I found that contrary to the desire for higher ISO performance, ISO 100 was a detriment when the highest shutter speed is 1/800. I'd rather see ISO 25 as a base.

Where I still in the Hasselbald H camp, where I used to have a H4D/60 (studio) and H4D/40 (location & mobile), my dream team would be the H5D/200 with CCD, and the H5D/50C.

My Leica S2P is a different animal, so I'm interested in where Leica goes with it in future. Since it can be thought of as being a blend of MFD and 35mm, and features a dual shutter system, a bit higher ISO would be of some value … however, if CMOS is adopted by Leica (highly likely), it remains to be seen if it retains the look and feel of the current S cameras (which I highly doubt).

- Marc
 
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