Which Video Camera to Start With?

[Oxide Blu]

I know nothing about video, but would like to play with a video camera. The one hurdle I could never get over is which media storage type to go with ... DVD, mini DVD, tape, CF ... ? What are the advantages/disadvantages of the various digital video media storage systems?

[kevinparis]

OK

My experience is limited to tape based DV/HDV cameras and to digital still cameras with video... but here are some of my thoughts

Tape based

Pros
Cheap media which can become your archive - use a tape only once
Almost unlimited shooting time

Cons
Real time capture to computer - 1 hour of video will take 1 hour to capture
You have to use the camera or a separate deck to capture
Complex mechanical device that may break/wear out

CF/SD based

Pros
Faster than real time capture - you are simply copying files

Cons
Your archive is on a hard disk - video files can get really big
Limited shooting time before you have to transfer to computer.

I am sure others will chip in with other points

cheers

K

[TRSmith]

My suggestion on which camera to start with would be... a cheap one.

A few years ago I had a dream. It was a simple dream. Make a little DVD that combined stills and video and music. So I bought a "prosumer" Sony digital cam and started shooting. Then started the process of editing. Even with some wonderful software that I happened to have, I found the learning curve too much. Like everyone I guess, I have become used to seeing sophisticated video on television. It became frustrating when I realized it was hard work to get even close.

It was a little fun but now, my then-expensive video cam just sits on the shelf. The market for which is dismal. I could probably sell it and treat myself to a hot dog with the money.

Hence, I say try a cheap one and go through the motions to see if you like it.

[kevinparis]

Agreed... making a video is a very different process from taking a photo. There is a lot more to be thinking about at the shooting stage such as making sure you have shots that will edit together to tell a story, that you have good audio etc. And then you get into the editing which is another story altogether.

I would suggest maybe looking around for some books/web sites to get a feel for what is involved. I have this one which is pretty good

http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Digi...4594280&sr=8-1

Then I would take whatever camera you have that does video.... it may even be your phone :-) and set you self little tasks and practise putting together the shots that tell some simple action

This one of mine was just a wee test using the E-P1 and one lens and no additional crew or actors. It was edited in imovie.... whole exercise took an hour. Its not art by any means, but it incorporates quite a few things you have to think about like movement, not crossing the line, shot length etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldbydYA5BM4

cheers

K

[ustein]

>My suggestion on which camera to start with would be..

Because these are photo forums start with your next camera that can do video.

P&S cameras like the Panasonic TZ5 or ZS3 can do nice videos. As mentioned befor the Olypus E-P1 is a nice camera to start with (including sound). The E-P1 is then also a great photo camera at the same time.

[ustein]

Originally Posted by Oxide Blu

. DVD, mini DVD, tape, CF ... ? What are the advantages/disadvantages of the various digital video media storage systems?

OverallI think tape is a dead end for the future and DVD too. THe future will be SD cards. They are right now a bit limited in speed.

[ustein]

When going into video you should be aware that you need a good tripod and fluid head for good results. Shaky clips are the enemy of video.

Also the question for your video camera has to be seen in the context of your expectations. What kind of videos would you like to create.

- Family
- Documentary
- ....

As mentioned before video is about story telling. What stories are you thinking about.

Here is the $100K winner of the Nikon Festival:

http://www.nikonfestival.com/blog/20...en-vs-penguin/

This is not about the camera, it is all about a nice short story.

[Oxide Blu]

Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I was thinking of getting a compact video camera that I can toss into a bag and take with me. Had not considered doing "movie" production with the video. (Kevin - I saw both of your Oly Pen videos, you linked to them in another thread. )

I have played with the video from my Ricoh cameras, edited using the cheesy Irodio sw that comes with the camera(s). Simple, low res stuff, but I enjoy it.

Originally Posted by ustein

OverallI think tape is a dead end for the future and DVD too. THe future will be SD cards. They are right now a bit limited in speed.

Panasonic, a major player in consumer video, is pushing ahead with tape based media storage. That said, I agree with you ... semiconductor storage is the future. CF cards are starting to fade away. I think Costco has dropped them altogether, no longer sells them, or will will discontinue CF cards in the near future.

[ustein]

I got some months ago a TZ5 (second hand) for under $200.

Here is a short test video:

http://vimeo.com/5920960

Download the video (just be come a Vimeo member, basic membership is free).

[kevinparis]

Originally Posted by Oxide Blu

Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I was thinking of getting a compact video camera that I can toss into a bag and take with me. Had not considered doing "movie" production with the video. (Kevin - I saw both of your Oly Pen videos, you linked to them in another thread. )

Panasonic, a major player in consumer video, is pushing ahead with tape based media storage. That said, I agree with you ... semiconductor storage is the future. CF cards are starting to fade away. I think Costco has dropped them altogether, no longer sells them, or will will discontinue CF cards in the near future.

two things...

1) separate my stop motion videos of my PEN which were shot frame by frame on a Oly 510 from the video i linked to which was shot "with" the PEN :-)

2) CF or Compact Flash may be disappearing from Costco.... but they are still semiconductor storage... they are just being replaced with SD which most cameras now use. Panansonic may still make tape based video cameras... but they are at the bottom of their range


K

[kevinparis]

Originally Posted by Oxide Blu

Had not considered doing "movie" production with the video.

If you are ever going to share your movies with anyone then i suggest you do try and think in movie/tv/documentary terms.... it has to be more than a slideshow and less than realtime capture of whatever it was you filmed... you have to engage your audience, you have to tell a story in a language they understand/feel comfortable with

K

[kevinparis]

the nikon film competition is great... simple story told with simple shots... just the right length. But you bet a whole lot of thinking went into it before shooting, and the editing made it all work... the shot of the old lady in the car was perfect to break the rythm

K

[ustein]

Originally Posted by kevinparis

But you bet a whole lot of thinking went into it before shooting, and the editing made it all work... the shot of the old lady in the car was perfect to break the rythm

K

Sure. Nice story told well.

[Ben Rubinstein]

That Nikon video is so cute!

[Oxide Blu]

Originally Posted by kevinparis

If you are ever going to share your movies with anyone then i suggest you do try and think in movie/tv/documentary terms.... it has to be more than a slideshow and less than realtime capture of whatever it was you filmed... you have to engage your audience, you have to tell a story in a language they understand/feel comfortable with

K

Thanks, Kevin. You are doing a great job of talking me out of video.

I think I'll look for a camera that uses SD cards.

What about resolution -- HD or std def -- does it matter as far as editing? I'm wondering if HD takes significantly more resources and time to edit.

[ustein]

Originally Posted by Oxide Blu

What about resolution -- HD or std def -- does it matter as far as editing? I'm wondering if HD takes significantly more resources and time to edit.

I would start with HD. Why? If you come from photography your appreciate the better resolution. HD is no real issue with modern computers. Yes, it eats up disk space and memory.

[kevinparis]

Originally Posted by Oxide Blu

Thanks, Kevin. You are doing a great job of talking me out of video.

I think I'll look for a camera that uses SD cards.

What about resolution -- HD or std def -- does it matter as far as editing? I'm wondering if HD takes significantly more resources and time to edit.

Just telling it as I see it from own bitter experience :-)...

K

[Rawfa]

If you want a dedicated budget video camera I can vouch for Canon. I've work with video for 8 years and I've their material from little consumer cameras to large professional ones. If you want something cheap with great quality you can find an HV20 on ebay that will rock your world quality wise. This was the camera I would take to my trips and it's quality is suberb.
Check this video from a trip to Rome I've done some years ago:
http://www.vimeo.com/897230

[Oxide Blu]

Rafa - is the color in the video out of the Canon camera that way -- or did you process the video to have that film quality look?

[Rawfa]

I did process it. But do some research on vimeo and you will find out more samples and how amazing they look.

[Professional]

I have a Sony Camcorder which i about i think in 2001, using tapes, and one slot for a card [digital], but really the quality is nice but i didn't use it since 2004 and i don't know where it is now but i will try to find it, so i don't know if the quality now comparing to my old video camera is a big different, as i don't know if that HD technology is really amazing, so, i was also looking to buy a video camera, many times i was planning to buy Canon 5D markII or cheaper camera with video option just for video then i told myself, if i want a still camera for video why not going to a dedicated video camera?

Now that i have one already, and i don't use it much, what will be another choice of new technology or if i want to be another one now? i don't know which brand to get, dunno which features i should look at, dunno what things i have to consider.

[kevinparis]

One of the reasons why so many video people are excited about the DSLRs with video is that the sensors in these cameras are much larger than you get in domestic and even some pro video cameras ( most semipro/pro cameras actually use 3 small sensors)

Bigger sensor means better low light capabilities, more control of depth of field, better dynamic range

DSLR s also give you access to lenses that are a big step up from the lens you get in a consumer camcorder.

With a DSLR you can get quality that approaches 35mm movie making at a much much lower cost.

K

[ustein]

Originally Posted by kevinparis

One of the reasons why so many video people are excited about the DSLRs with video is that the sensors in these cameras are much larger than you get in domestic and even some pro video cameras ( most semipro/pro cameras actually use 3 small sensors)

Bigger sensor means better low light capabilities, more control of depth of field, better dynamic range

DSLR s also give you access to lenses that are a big step up from the lens you get in a consumer camcorder.

With a DSLR you can get quality that approaches 35mm movie making at a much much lower cost.

K

Good summary. And these are also great still cameras .

[ustein]

Note on light video cameras:

It is nice that the new HDSLRs are so light. But this means they need even more a tripod to avoid shake.

[Professional]

Originally Posted by kevinparis

One of the reasons why so many video people are excited about the DSLRs with video is that the sensors in these cameras are much larger than you get in domestic and even some pro video cameras ( most semipro/pro cameras actually use 3 small sensors)

Bigger sensor means better low light capabilities, more control of depth of field, better dynamic range

DSLR s also give you access to lenses that are a big step up from the lens you get in a consumer camcorder.

With a DSLR you can get quality that approaches 35mm movie making at a much much lower cost.

K

I see, then you prefer to go with a DSLR which has a video feature?

There are many P&S cameras that have video feature before it appears in DSLRs, what has changed then?

[ustein]

Originally Posted by Professional

I see, then you prefer to go with a DSLR which has a video feature?

There are many P&S cameras that have video feature before it appears in DSLRs, what has changed then?

The challenges for HDSLRs are the following:

1. Sensor heat (the P&S sensors were not designed for ultimate image quality). This gets better every year.

2. DSLRs (except the Micro Four Third cameras) have a mirror. This is the main obstacle with most HDSLRs. This also means these mirror cameras are noisy (if recording through the builtin mic) and AF through the viewfinder does not work for video.

The best HDSLR video implementation right now is the the Panasonic GH1. I did not say it has the best image quality although it is nice. But even the Olympus E-P1/2 does a very nice jobs at 720p including stereo sound.

[kevinparis]

Professional

I have access to both large semi pro (Sony Z1 - 3 ccd) and small consumer HDV (canon single CCD) cameras as well as a Canon 5d mk2 and an e-p1.

all have their pros and cons - the z1 is better than the canon... more control, better quality... but it is big and not discreet.

The canon has been used rarely - think i would only use it for b-roll or maybe location scouting

Just got the 5d and am still learning it - has potential for best video quality, but not as versatile as the Z1 for audio in terms of connectivity.

All video work benefits from a tripod...or insane amounts of betablocker :-) more so than still photography in my opinion.

DSLRS are not noisy beacuse of the mirror.... its locked up...and they use liveview its just that the built in mics pic up on the autofocus or your handling of the camera. The GH1 gets good marks because its zoom lens was designed to be as quiet as possible.

Microphones on video cameras are like flashguns/lighting on still cameras... they usually work better the further away from the camera you have them -

cheers

K

[Professional]

Originally Posted by kevinparis

Professional

I have access to both large semi pro (Sony Z1 - 3 ccd) and small consumer HDV (canon single CCD) cameras as well as a Canon 5d mk2 and an e-p1.

all have their pros and cons - the z1 is better than the canon... more control, better quality... but it is big and not discreet.

The canon has been used rarely - think i would only use it for b-roll or maybe location scouting

Just got the 5d and am still learning it - has potential for best video quality, but not as versatile as the Z1 for audio in terms of connectivity.

All video work benefits from a tripod...or insane amounts of betablocker :-) more so than still photography in my opinion.

DSLRS are not noisy beacuse of the mirror.... its locked up...and they use liveview its just that the built in mics pic up on the autofocus or your handling of the camera. The GH1 gets good marks because its zoom lens was designed to be as quiet as possible.

Microphones on video cameras are like flashguns/lighting on still cameras... they usually work better the further away from the camera you have them -

cheers

K

Thanks for the info, so helpful and i appreciate it.

[Rawfa]

Originally Posted by kevinparis

One of the reasons why so many video people are excited about the DSLRs with video is that the sensors in these cameras are much larger than you get in domestic and even some pro video cameras ( most semipro/pro cameras actually use 3 small sensors)

Bigger sensor means better low light capabilities, more control of depth of field, better dynamic range

DSLR s also give you access to lenses that are a big step up from the lens you get in a consumer camcorder.

With a DSLR you can get quality that approaches 35mm movie making at a much much lower cost.

K

Like I said I've worked professionally with video for a long time, and for a long time we used very bulky adapters that allowed us to use 35mm lenses on videocameras. When the D90 first hit the market the video community simply went crazy with all the possibilities, but this quickly faded away when all the deficiencies made them selves clear. Since then many more DSLR shoot video, but even with more dynamic range and DOF there are way too many compromises. The big problem here is rolling shutter (aka jello effect), compression (which is really bad on DSLRs when compared to video cameras) and the lack of manual control and many video inputs/outputs/parameters. Once they fix these things then dedicated camcorders might just become obsolete. That's not to say you cannot do very nice stuff with a VDSLR, but you have to learn to live with limitations that not even low end hd video cameras have.

[kevinparis]

good points rafa

some of the rigs I have seen built around a 5D are just insane. DSLRS make good image/video capture devices... but as video cameras they do have serious drawbacks.

video at this moment reminds me of the early days of desktop publishing... in that access to the tools to produce results close or equal to what was only available at high cost from professional operators became available to everyone. The result was that everybody thought they could do it themselves...

The problem is that access to the tools the 'professionals' use doesn't make the user a professional. Give me michaelangelos paint brush and a blank sistine chapel roof and i will make a mess.

making good video requires a range of skills that dwarf those of still photography... but people do it. It is less of a solo activity than photography, but is enormously satisfying whn you get it right

k

[TRSmith]

You guys have way more video experience than I do, but I'd just like to insert a flag about audio. After attempting some simple vids using on-camera audio, my appreciation for the sound guys on films went waaaay up. There's a reason that there are separate people managing the audio on professional shoots. I think it might involve magic, but I'm not sure.

[ustein]

>making good video requires a range of skills that dwarf those of still photography... but people do it. It is less of a solo activity than photography, but is enormously satisfying when you get it right

I agree on that. Key is that these cameras in the right hands can produce excellent videos. The cost for video cameras is not limiting your creativity anymore.

Blogs for your motivation:

http://hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/
http://philipbloom.co.uk/blog/

Low light video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R46ca9zBP4A

>It is less of a solo activity than photography

That is really a problem. That is why I accept to limit myself. Also overblown Hollywood productions show that more money does not mean better movies. They are often perfectly polished but lacking any content.

The Nikon Festival winner video made a great point that in the end good stories count.

Best just get started. Learn the technique of editing. It can be fun but lots to learn. You don't need to please Hollywood. Start with your friends (show your work on Vimeo,YouTube,iPhone/iPod and soon iPad).

If you need to earn your money with video this maybe very different.

[Steen]

from LL:

Understanding Video - A Video Primer for Photographers
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...o-primer.shtml

Especially read the "Movies move" paragraph, not far from the bottom of the article ...

[aprillove20]

Well, I agree that P&S cameras like the Panasonic TZ5 or ZS3 can do nice videos.

[nikjerry]

Well the only one thing that I want to say truly I was totally unknown from this video camera, but after reading your this all of the stuff I got some of the idea regarding to it. I really that much happy that this increase my knowledge.