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When is an R not an R?

robmac

Well-known member
From Michael Reichman at LL:

"A Leica MF (Medium Format) system is almost definitely on the horizon, but specifics will have to wait for an official announcement.

Apparently there are still many details to be resolved, so don't believe much of what you read, other than the fact that something is cooking.

Michael"

With No R lenses coming at PK and with Kaufmann simply referring to 'reflex' vs R10 or R-line and with all the Jenoptik (sic?) hugs & kisses of late, the new R looks like it may very well NOT be a 35mm SLR.

Makes more sense for them to enter the awakening MFDB sub-market with a partner than try and develop a manual focus uber-ISO 35mm DSLR - they'd get their lunch eaten for them. Stick to manual focus uber-glass and (relatively) low-ISO performance sans AA filter.

IF true, they may allow it to have a sub-MF mode (like D3 Dx mode) that would allow older R glass to be used via some $1000 adapter (;>).

I don't even want to guess what the all-in price would be for a decent kit. My heart isn't that strong. :)
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
How about a digital answer to the Mamiya 7 with multiple sensor options? Sub 10K 22mp version, Sub 20k 33mp version and skies the limit 50mp+ version. The likelihood of this is infinitesimal, but it would be a way to reestablish their position of having the best image quality in photography (well, at least relative to their film size).

Anyway, they have their agreement to cooperate on products with Sinar, so there is very good reason to believe that something will come of it.
 

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member
In my opinion a camera is no longer an R camera if you cannot mount R mount lenses on it without use of adapters. The system letter "R" designates the mount in my understanding.
The mount is the most crucial single point in any interchangeable lens "system".

Changing mount is quite all right, I can think of many very good reasons to do such a thing.
Like changing from film optimized optics & mount to digital optimized optics & mount e.g. for telecentric design purposes. Or changing format of the image circle, or whatever.
So discontinuing the DMR and at the same time or shortly after deciding to change the R mount to a new mount in the future is fair enough. In my opinion.
But it is definitely not fair enough not to tell it to the customers if the R mount at this stage is in fact discontinued and has been so for e.g. a year or so.
On the contrary, that would be scandalous, and a very, very unwise behaviour. In my personal opinion.
 

LCT

Member
The R mount would not be necessarily discontinued. Could be used with other mounts on a Sinar M-type camera.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Apparently there is a story going round (for what that's worth) of some pro being briefly shown a Leica-badged camera that, he indicated, bore a strong resemblance to the old Contax 645 body...
 
The R mount would not be necessarily discontinued. Could be used with other mounts on a Sinar M-type camera.
Are you referring to the following?
BernardS1975 wrote:
> I talked to a Leica collector who claimed that he was able to see a
> prototype of a new MF Leica camera. It is allegedly all European
> (German and Swiss), looks like a Contax 645 without a digital back,
> it is black and does not look similar to Hy6, it is able to shoot DNG
> and JPEG files simultaneously, the focal plane shutter is based on
> the design of Sinar-M and is manufactured in Schweizerland, the
> reflex unit is smaller than 645 and is of German origin. The most
> confusing part of this rumour that the collector was sure that the
> new MF Leica did not have card slots and had the internal memory. No
> info on the sensor, he was told that the size was not finalized and
> it was planned to use the same Kodak sensor the less expensive Sinar
> back will have.
> Bernard
> --
I own a Sinar-M modular and the shutter unit is pretty big even without a bottom or side batteries.
And I doubt that an R lens will cover even smallest MF Sinar sensor. Right now Sinar have the 22 mpx Kodak sensor they use in 54m and 54H backs and its size is 49.0 x 36.7 mm.

Yevgeny
P.S. I will be happy to get a small modular MFD camera with focal plane shutter, with a small 44 x 33 (or s bit smaller) sensor around 28 mpx and a possibility to use all kind of lenses, even exotic Leica R glass. As of today Sinar-M use Hasselblad V lens mount.
Yevgeny
 
I thought the Sinar M can use 35mm lenses (Nikon?). Am I missing something?
I was referring to the R lens coverage and the claim that allegedly Leica will be using a Sinar-m shutter in a new camera.
Yes, you are right.
AFAIK Sinar-M can be used with 3 front modules:
- Nicon mount mirror box module (Manual focusing, discontinued)
- Hasselblad (Manual) and without the viewfinder and mirror box,
- AF Digital Module, reflex, Mamiya 645 type prism (hasselblad V mount).
Yevgeny
 

robmac

Well-known member
IF it's true and this is Leica's new reflex body (no R10) , while it sounds interesting, it will appeal to a far narrower user base than the much hoped for R9/DMR successor.

For every 1 MFD users or potential MF convert interested in the system there will be 10 R users (holding a boat load of glass that has just dropped in value) ready to storm the castle gates as it were.

Going to be interesting - one way or the other.
 

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member
As we speak Leica is still selling brand new R lenses through the dealers without any added information whatsoever about the R mount being discontinued.
To keep a discontinuation a secret while still selling these expensive R optics would be deeply unethical. In my opinion.
That’s why I still believe we will actually see a new true R mount DSLR, i.e. a camera taking R lenses without any need of adapters. Maybe manufactured in cooperation with a partner like e.g. Panasonic, but still a true R mount camera.
Otherwise the mount is in fact discontinued and has been so for quite a while, in my understanding.
 

LCT

Member
Film cameras still exist for current lenses. R mount for film and MF mount for digital? Would border on the imbecilic to me as i don't see the point of loosing 10 R customers to gain a couple MF users but the rumour of a new mount is becoming astounding i'm afraid....
 
Film cameras still exist for current lenses. R mount for film and MF mount for digital? Would border on the imbecilic to me as i don't see the point of loosing 10 R customers to gain a couple MF users but the rumour of a new mount is becoming astounding i'm afraid....
If we believe the rumor on Leica association with Sinar/Jenoptik, than why Leica won't use the R modified lens mount; Sinar did that with their Sinaron Digital AF module. It is possible to mount the AF Sinaron Zeiss lenses AND all Hasselblad manual lenses without an adapter!
Excuse my ignorance, is the R mount too small for a 30 mpx. Kodak sensor with micro-lenses? The older lenses can be used in a "crop" mode...
Yevgeny
 

LCT

Member
Matter of price and size to me. R owners have been used to buy their bodies more or less the same price as M cameras and some (most?) of them did prefer the M-type size of the R4/R7s over that of late R8/R9 bodies. Now Leica would ask them to accept a kind of Godzilla camera to use their dear lenses in crop mode and pay this honor twice the usual price? As far as i'm concerned it's a no-no. I'd keep my R lenses in the hope that Leica becomes reasonable soon or late (?) but my next stuff would be a D700 or A900 with 3 or 4 Zeiss lenses most probably.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Agree with LCT. For 90% of R users out there, it's not really a matter if the R mount is large enough to project on a 30MP MFDB, but the fact that they are expecting/hoping for and used to shooting in a 35mm format and form factor.

For them, a MFDB, regardless of sensor size, means $$$$ for a new back, maybe some costly (they would be from Leica and one has to assume new MF lenses as no new R lenses are supposedly coming) adapters, a new format, more computing power and storage required, clean ISO performance that caps out, if their lucky, at 800 vs 2000+ or so for the new far cheaper DSLR offerings, etc., etc. Then there is the question, since most will not be pros, do/will they print large enough to justify the $$$?
 

robmac

Well-known member
More fuel for the fire:

From LUG:

"I was at my New York Leica dealer this week, in the store, and he claimed the R system/lenses is dead. The new Leica will be medium-format, not compatible with existing R lenses.

He said "look, dealers are already selling off R equipment, we can buy it at a discounted rate from Leica".
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Nice too see your investment get buried in the dirt. I like the MF idea but burning there existing R user will NOT go over very nicely.
 

robmac

Well-known member
It will be ugly - if this rumor, which is one among many, including Leica re-badging Canon DSLRs (I can hear the stomachs churning over that one..), turns out to be true.
 

cmb_

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Well, you missed the other rumor (same forum) from the Leica dealer who spoke with Kaufman who confirmed that the R10 will be a full frame digital body with a 24 x 36mm sensor. So there is still time to buy back some of the R lenses that were sold off in a panic. Perhaps that could be a good strategy - sell off all R lenses, wait until prices hit rock bottom and then buy them all back!
:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

Nitnaros

Member
cmb - sent you a personal note here on the forum.

The MF Leica at this years Photokina seems clear.

Not sure whether they announce a plan for a 35mm R10 for say 2010...

Peter
 
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