Summarit Series 35,50,90 Ugly Test

[Guy Mancuso]

Well many folks run tests under ideal conditions. not my thing. I want to know when it is the worst it can possible be what my lenses will do under these conditions. So in that light this is strictly a Bokeh, Contrast , Saturation and Highlight test under the strongest ugliest light, deepest shadows and ugly background . In short The UGLY test. The only thing nice about it is my daughter Cali trying to keep her poor eyes open in the one of the brightest parts in the world, other than that these are conditions that you want to avoid at all costs but can't. Now let me point out what this test is NOT, it is not a sharpest , resolution test. You simply can't do that with a moving target so with that some will look sharper and some will not either due to her moving or dad not nailing the focusing. I would like to blame her because i am damn good at focusing but i even missed here. Tough conditions for sure. that sharpness test will come later plus i have another battery of test to do next week in much better light and conditions. i will call that one the pretty test. LOL

But the UGLY test comes first and it is pretty interesting to see what lens hold the contrast has the better saturation and can handle the highlights on here skin. This is bright stuff and many of you may not see the conditions like this.

So the details . Test lenses
35 summarit Vs 35mm F2 Cron version IV
50 summarit Vs 50mm 1.4 Lux ASPH
90 Summarit Vs 90 mm F2 Cron Apo

All shot at ISO 160 , camera set to daylight on A mode . BTW the meter was dead on. Also no chance of flair had umbrella over the setup. processed in LR . NO White Balance . I want to see the color of the lens and what it outputs. WB just makes it right, i want to see what is off that sensor not what LR does . Also turned ALL sharpening off. No adjustments to fill, recovery, shadow or highlights. I can work magic with these controls but for testing all of it is off. So bottom line it is ugly as it should be and down to the basic element as I can get, the lens.

Please wait until i finish loading all this up , it will take some time and i will let you know when i am done . This way it stays in order. Thanks Guy

Remember this is NOT a sharpness test. I missed, that will come without a moving object

[Guy Mancuso]

First lets just post the 35mm Cron Version IV wide open at f2

[Guy Mancuso]

Cron first at f2.5 than Summarrit at 2.5

[Guy Mancuso]

35mm cron at 2.8 than 35mm summarit at 2.8

[Guy Mancuso]

35mm cron at F4 than 35mm Summarit at F4

[Guy Mancuso]

35 cron at 5.6 and 35 summarit at 5.6

[Guy Mancuso]

35mm cron at F8 than 35mm Summarit at F8

[Guy Mancuso]

Couple casual observations the Crons holds the shadows better and the bokeh is different than the Summarits . But the Summarits seem to hold the highlights better in the 35mm dept. Now a lot of this can be worked in the raw processing no doubt but this is your base file to work with

Let's move on to the 50mm

I really felt bad for Cali the sun was killing her here

[Jan Brittenson]

Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso

35mm cron at F4 than 35mm Summarit at F4

That's it, I'm reporting you for Lens Abuse.

My eyes! They're bleeding!

[Guy Mancuso]

Moving on to the 50mm bracket . Lets put the 50 lux at 1.4 and F2 up in this section just for reference because obviously the Summarit is 2.5

Now I think this is were i missed focus and hit her hair on the left , still the data we need is here and that is what counts

[Guy Mancuso]

50 lux at F2.5 and 50 summarit at 2.5. Sorry folks this is a long test

[Guy Mancuso]

50 lux at 2.8 and 50 sum at 2.8

[Guy Mancuso]

50 lux at 4 and 50 sum at 4

[Guy Mancuso]

50 lux at 5.6 and 50 sum at 5.6.

[Guy Mancuso]

Let's skip the F8 on the 50's and move on to the 90mm lens test.

Personally no chance i could not have the speed of the Lux but for the money difference well that is another story. i am impressed so far with the 50 performance and the 35 also

Okay we will put up the 90 apo cron at F2 .

[Guy Mancuso]

90 cron F2.5 than 90 sum at 2.5

[Guy Mancuso]

90 cron F2.8 than 90 sum at 2.8

[Guy Mancuso]

90 cron F4 than 90 sum at F4

[Guy Mancuso]

90 cron F5.6 than 90 sum at F5.6

[Guy Mancuso]

Okay that is it for the test but just to show you how much you can get out of a situation like this, you can really work magic with raw processing and in reality all your images would look similar to this than what the test itself showed. there is a ton of elbow room with the M8 and all of these lenses are really damn good.

Just took a minute to make one look more normal. This was a 35 summarrit from the test

Thanks for your patience and time , Hopefully this will help you a little more. More testing to come

[Guy Mancuso]

Also a round of applause for my daughters help and i feel i should show her in a better light so i shot this in the open shade with the 75 Lux at 1.4

[Guy Mancuso]

One point I did forget all with Leica IR filters on and menu set to UV/IR On.

[robsteve]

Guy:

Just to clarify, your 35mm Summicron was the older version before the ASPH?

In the 35mm shots there isn't much difference, but you may be comparing a 25-30 year old design 35mm Summicron version IV to a brand new design. The greens are better on the Summicron. I am looking at the green grass off to the lower right.


On the 50mm shots, the Summilux ASPH seems to have better blacks. The greens are also better on the Lux shot.

In the 90mm shots there is a much larger difference between the lenses in the blacks. It may be the APO correction coming into play.

Just looking at the green grass in the shots, these Summarits may not have the same color as the other Leica lenses. One of the hallmarks of Leica glass is it should all look the same and not have different colour. This goes back to the days of shooting slides where a lens with a different colour response would stick out in a slide show.

[Guy Mancuso]

Morning folks yes the one thing that is pretty evident right off the bat is that there very good. Yes there is some subtle differences .Yes i did use the same processing throughout. I still think the Guy lenses are better but these really do give them a run and that is what impresses me so far. My only real issue is focusing the 90 summarit , the lenses they gave me are brand new out of the box and the 90 is stiff to focus as a learned shooting the golf the other day it can bounce on you out of focus. Lens really just needs to broken in with focusing. So we may hear new lens users saying this but the buttom line on long lenses is they just need to wear in so that focus is smooth.

Now there certainly Leica feel and built like the more expensive lenses too. If know one appreciates the way leica builds there lenses than they just don't know better. The feel and heft of them is better than anyone. The Summarits are right there with that real lens feeling. I know most of you know exactly what i am saying. There is meat there


Yes the 90 cron does seem to be a touch warmer also. I'm looking at my site on those and with the darker back ground it maybe more obvious . If you want to look here is the link http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...p?t=120&page=2


The area i am watching is the specular highlights and the new summarits seem to be a touch better here in handling it smoother mostly in the 35 and 50 and the 90 the Cron seems a little better. Very important for a Portrait shooter

The other area i see big difference is the Bokeh on the 35mm the Version IV lens is really different at 2, 2.5,2.8. Than it kind of equals the Summarrits in look at F4

I know Sean is also running a whole series of comparisons also and what i believe you will see bigger differences in his tests compared to Zeiss and CV glass. My tests are from the same family of Leica so the differences seem to me more subtle and his may vary greatly in look and feel. Honestly I was expecting a bigger difference

I know i always say whatever test you see just record it as another piece of the total puzzle before laying your money down. I think real questions will come to mind when you put your hand in your pocket and try to decide what F stop you can afford for one and what you are willing to pay for that speed. I really think so far these Summarits were a good idea on Leica's part but now given what were are seeing pretty damn brilliant.

Lets see what further testing will bring. Now folks like me that are stocked pretty heavily maybe get one, folks starting in the M8 system than that is a different story and may get more than one. The 90 and 75 are my personal watch lenses. Hopefully i can get my hands on a 75 soon. They were a little back ordered from what i hear

[Guy Mancuso]

Originally Posted by robsteve

Guy:

Just to clarify, your 35mm Summicron was the older version before the ASPH?

In the 35mm shots there isn't much difference, but you may be comparing a 25-30 year old design 35mm Summicron version IV to a brand new design.

On the 50mm shots, the Summilux ASPH seems to have better blacks. The greens are also better on the Lux shot. I am looking at the green off to the lower right.

In the 90mm shots there is a much larger difference between the lenses in the blacks. It may be the APO correction coming into play.

Nice observations Robert and that is pretty much what i am seeing also. not giving up my 50 Lux for anything because i do need the speed for my work.

Yes this is true the 35 version IV is pre asph and much older

[cmb_]

First and foremost - big round of applause for Cali!!!!!

Looks like the Summarits perform very well. One thing I notice with the 90's is the Cron handles the color, shadow, and highlight in the face much better. But as you pointed out you can deal with this in post and these are not ideal conditions so when you upload the "pretty test" it will be interesting to see if there is a big difference.

Bokeh seems good on the 90 Summarit and it really is good on all three.

The 50 is tough. I would find it hard to go for the Summarit at this focal length and give up 1.4 or even f/2 with a cron (but I do not have an M so this is all speculation on my part - but I am sure considering one).

I know you said this is not a resolution test but on center the Summarits seem real good but you can see they give up a little in the corners to the Cron and the Lux (the sleeve in her dress, for instance). But this may also be a characteristic one would seek.

The Summarits certainly expand the range of selection available depending on the characteristics one desires.

Lastly, big round of applause for Dad!!!

[Guy Mancuso]

On center i will agree they seem pretty deadly sharp. Just thinking how to do the sharpness test. I don't want to do charts , man i hate them. I think I should do a color test also.

[Cindy Flood]

Guy,
Thank you so much for going through this exercise for us. Thanks to your model. Cali was a real trooper. I think real-world shooting is an important part of the puzzle. I'm looking forward to reading Sean's results, too.
I think that these lenses are better than I thought they would be and will make a good entry choice for new M8 owners, and the longer ones will make good travel options in our bags. The Guy lenses are the gold standard--- and that hasn't changed.

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks Cindy and could not agree more. These lenses will serve two purposes maybe three . New users coming into the M8 will certainly be the bigger buyers. Folks like us that have a full system and want some good travel lenses 75 and 90 certainly would be less weight and bulk in my bag compared to my 75 lux and 90 cron. Than you will have the fill a gap folks that maybe have a 50 and 90 and grab the 75 to fill it. Or have a 35 and 75 than add the 90mm. i know Jack already ordered the 90mm for travel even though he has the 90 cron. So some folks will overlap too. Now they need to address the wider arena . We really need leica to come out with a 12, 15 lenses. i hope this is there first ones coming after the Summarit 35,50,75 and 90.

lenses i would like to see are the 12 and 15 . Than give us a 24 F2 , 21 F2 and a 28 Lux 1.4. That would really round out there M line

[David K]

Guy,
Thanks for this test, I think it's very informative and the Summarit's held their own pretty well, especially for the price and the size. Also have to say what a treat it is not to have the thread steered off topic by the Canon vs Leica guys. Thanks to your lovely daughter too for being a good sport. Wouldn't mind seeing a shot of the 90's side by side to see the size difference if you get a chance.

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks David your right i need to get that done. One more cup of Espresso and I am on it. LOL

[etrigan63]

Must be like 30% humidity out there? You try anything like that here in Florida and your lovely daughter would be reduced to a sopping mass of perspiration, running mascara, and the rest of her facial makeup somewhere around her navel. Still, a big round of applause for Cali for being a trooper and putting with Dad's little acts of Mad Science!

The lens look like they are some real winners Guy. I got to play with them a Leica Demo Day down here at the beginning of November. The were very nice. I was not allowed to shoot pics as they were late pre-production samples. All they need is a 24-25mm and the line will be complete.

This thread is giving me GAS...

[KurtKamka]

I found a 75 at Camerwest on Friday. I should have it by Tuesday or Wednesday. Not that I need another lens, but, I want to see if it might be a substitute for lugging the 75lux around for quick trips. I'll be able to post a few quick comparisons during the Thanksgiving holiday for those who might be interested in a bokeh comparison.

Kurt

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks etrigan63 and BTW welcome to the forum. Yes these may make have you looking in your pockets a little to buy one .


Kurt that would be great. Just tag on this if you want.

Funny how did i know you already bought one, you know my friend your starting to rub off on me and that is scary. But your right I am looking the 75 or 90 myself. The bigger difference in size and weight is the 75mm lux vs the 75 Summarit

[cmb_]

I could see Leica using the Summarits to introduce a starter set for the M8 like they have with the M7 and the 50 Cron or the R9 + 35-70/4. That could be attractive for new buyers just getting into the M system as well as existing M users who do not have an M8 and are looking to go digital.

[Lars Vinberg]

Guy,

I've been staring at your sample shots using the 35's..., the first one has a background bokeh that I just find a bit unpleasant and busy. I realize that it's partly a subjective matter, but not entirely. It looks overcompensated. I'm looking specifically at the upper right corner of the image and the sunlit bush. I would imagine that in the kind of photography you use your Leica for, background bokeh quality is not irrelevant.

The second 35 (Summicron?) has a very nice, creamy bokeh. I'd be willing to sacrifice some MTF stats for that!

(Also, one thing that's missing in your test shots is foreground bokeh. Far less important than background bokeh, of course. and I would guess that most Leica lenses won't fail miserably wrt foreground bokeh.)

Lars

[Guy Mancuso]

Lars good eye . Yes actually the first 35 is the Cron F2 version IV about 20 years old in design and also non ASPH. It actually has been coined the bokeh king and yes it can be weird. Classic example of it in those shots , sort of like a Noctilux 50mm F1 lens has very strange bokeh which this resembles. Some folks will like that Summarit look a lot better and in these shots I agree. The bokeh looks a little strange in the cron with those trees. A lens you have to pay attention to the background

[Lars Vinberg]

Well bokeh is also about the transition from sharp to unsharp, perhaps the "Cron" has qualities in that field. There is a LF photographer I know, Jim Galli, who collects and resells vintage LF lenses, he did a comparison of bokeh of soft focus lenses some time ago (I think it was Jim maybe my memory is not accurate). These lenses were used shooting a flower wide open on 8x10, DOF is literally micrometers, and you can clearly see the gradual transition from sharp to unsharp and how it differs widely even on lenses that render faraway out of focus objects similarly. Forgive my fascination with this topic, but I think it is possibly one of the most important qualities of a lens. Like I said I'm not a Leica shooter, my favorites wrt bokeh are my 85/1.4 and DC ("defocus control") 135/2 Nikkors, and of course my Cooke for 8x10. The cooke seems neutral in terms of bokeh meaning foreground and background out of focus is rendered in a similar way. The DC-Nikkor is a bit interesting in as its spherical aberration correction can be varied giving some interesting results including soft focus. My portrait here was shot with the DC-Nikkor at soft focus setting (I wrote an article about the photo here: http://www.8x10.se/pages/lightzone_selfportrait.htm. At the bottom of the page is a larger picture that I think illustrates both the soft focus at the setting I used, and the transition to background blur.)

Sorry about rambling and hijacking the thread I realize this is not Leica-specific.

Lars

[Guy Mancuso]

No not at all Lars knowledge is king and wherever that winds up is always a good thing. Most of the Leica lenses that have this nice graduation between OOF are usually the Mandler design which most of them are the Sumilux . Look at the 50mm shots and that nice 75mm 1.4 shot of Cali. Jack knows a lot about the Mandler lenses and maybe he can chime in when he gets a chance.

A great topic and maybe we should start a thread somewhere on it. Everyone on this forum would love to learn more on bokeh and how it looks with different formats and lenses.

[Guy Mancuso]

Here is a shot of the three Summarits i have. I shot it on a old metallic background and it's ugly but just wanted to show sizes

[Guy Mancuso]

Here they are next to there counterparts laying down. I was rushing to get this shot

[Guy Mancuso]

The whole lot of them 35 Summarit , 35 Cron, 50 Summarit, 50 Lux, 90 Summarit and 90 Cron

[Guy Mancuso]

Need to blow the dust off. LOL

[Lars Vinberg]

Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso

No not at all Lars knowledge is king and wherever that winds up is always a good thing.

Hehe I'm used to the "forum police" over at the Nikonians forum, they wouldn't even allow discussions about D3 rumors as that could offend Nikon. Priceless... Much easier to run a small forum like this of course, you know most or all of the members.

[Guy Mancuso]

Well the idea here Lars is freedom to do what you think is right as long as it is the right thing to do for other members also. Frankly that is the only real rule i have. I do want a peaceful setting that promotes learning and sharing and it ties in with what we teach. If something good falls in a thread and we all think we should talk about let's do that but if a member thinks it should have it's own space to blossom we will create one for it. Our PM box is open 24/7 and any idea's are welcome.

BTW Jack and I do like knowing all our members and the big plus is we are here with you and I think that is the best part of this place. Were here to promote learning and having Pro's like yourself is invaluable to the membership.

[Guy Mancuso]

Okay a little color test with a Macbeth color chart just to see absolutely if there is a difference. Here shot in the studio in a controlled setting with strobes and i also DID WB these from the bottom second left patch . One thing I did notice is my 35 cron does focus closer than the Summarit by .5 feet

[Guy Mancuso]

50mm lenses

[Guy Mancuso]

And the 90mm lenses

[Guy Mancuso]

What is amazing a twenty year old lens looks like a new one . Wow hard pressed to see any real difference.

[harmsr]

Hey Guy,

Thanks for the testing.

I would agree with you that the 35 and 50 lenses are great starter lenses for those new to the system and starting out. In 35 I really like how the Lux ASPH rendered but the focus shift on the M8 did get in the way of my photographic use for the lens. Sorry to mention it, but I just don't like the version 4 or Nocti style bokeh. The Summarit seams cloase to my 35 Cron ASPH, but I think with a little less contrast (this is a good thing) and a little less fine detail.

The 50 Summarit seams a better option than the current Elmarit, but the Lux ASPH has got to be the best 50 mm lens ever. Out of curiosity, how does it handle flare?

The 90 is interesting to a point, however the Cron ASPH really does deliver more fine detail and textures but at a cost in both $ and size. How do you think it compares to the current 90 Elmarit? If you around Monday or Tuesday, I would like to see the Summarit shot against my Elmarit.

On the plus side, I do like these better than the 35 & 50 Zeiss offerings which are just too contrasty for me.

Best,

Ray