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IQ 180: first handling: to upgrade or not?

tashley

tashley

Subscriber Member
I had a go with the beast today and like everyone else was pretty impressed. The screen is very nice and the ability to zoom to 100% or more and then pan around is really useful.

Assuming that the 80mp version has the following IQ benefits compared to a P65+:
* about 1/3rd better DR
* the extra resolution of 20mp more
* slightly lower noise

I wondered whether the upgrade might make sense for me.

My take is as follows (I won't repeat what LL and Jack and Guy and Uwe and others have said...) and takes into account that the upgrade cost from P65+ including tax is likely to be in the region of £12,000

For tethered, studio use only, I wouldn't bother upgrading. I don't think I've ever needed more resolution, however tempting it always sounds, and with flash in the studio I am shooting at low ISOs and with very carefully controlled and monitored exposure, so the noise and DR benefits are probably marginal. The benefits of the lovely new screen are largely obviated by tethering, as long as you can get your monitor near your camera.

Therefore, for me, the reason to upgrade would all relate to outdoor and non-tethered shooting, where the benefits of the new features could really kick in. Now, it is too early to judge this because the units we have all used are prototypes and things will get faster and more feature rich but my initial take is that one would truly have to see the shipping version before placing an order. Why? Because on the prototype, with the CF card provided, there was a 10 to 12 second delay between pressing the shutter (and then double clicking the screen as soon as it displayed the shot) and the moment when you could see the fully resolved 100% zoomed image.

I have no doubt that that will get much faster.

Shooting non-tethered, the critical improvement of the new model, especially when mounted on a technical camera, will be: (for me)

* easier framing (doesn't need more than basic live view but does need it to work in bright daylight, which current model live view doesn't really)

* ability to set and check focus accurately, especially with movements.

Now, there is no implementation in the prototype of the Live View or the Focus mask, nor (I think) any clear indication that the focus mask will work in live view mode or that live view mode will be zoomable at full res. Let's assume for a moment that there may not be a real step-change in quality of live view from that available tethered on a P65+. IF that is the case, then for my money, with or without focus mask, it might be of limited use. For me, therefore, the process of setting and checking focus with movements would require a noticeably faster time from shot to full res full zoom view than we currently have in the prototype. When the light and the weather are changing and I am trying to get everything right (and take LCC shots too!), working in the field with movements needs EITHER good zoomable live view, preferably with focus mask, OR very fast full res review.

SO, much as I really really loved the look and feel of the new model (and really really like the simple fact that the back can be powered on by the camera body!) I won't be placing my order until I've seen the shipping implementation.

I'd imagine most people will be in the same boat. But for me the question is, will the 'early adopter upgrade pricing' window close before I can try a shipping version?

I know I want this new back... but I can't yet tell if I need it! But boy or boy, does that screen look great, and using it feel natural...
 
Guy Mancuso

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
with the CF card provided, there was a 10 to 12 second delay between pressing the shutter (and then double clicking the screen as soon as it displayed the shot) and the moment when you could see the fully resolved 100% zoomed image.

Very Strange Tim we did not see that at all. We where using Sandisk Exteme Cards and 3 seconds tops to see full res on screen. Must have been using a card not supported or something.
 
tashley

tashley

Subscriber Member
Guy Mancuso said:
with the CF card provided, there was a 10 to 12 second delay between pressing the shutter (and then double clicking the screen as soon as it displayed the shot) and the moment when you could see the fully resolved 100% zoomed image.

Very Strange Tim we did not see that at all. We where using Sandisk Exteme Cards and 3 seconds tops to see full res on screen. Must have been using a card not supported or something.
Click to expand...
Yup, I was expecting faster but this was also a sandisk extreme III as provided for the demo. I would say that a file already on the camera, when selected from the thumbnails, took about three seconds, but me and another photographer both timed the shot to zoom time several times and it was always 10-12 seconds. Mind you, this unit has travelled the world in the past few days so it might just be very tired! :)

Edit: I should add that this was all in full res rather than sensor plus mode.
 
D

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
In addition to the chance that guy/jack's CF card was simply faster there is also a chance of firmware variation.

With previous releases there have been more than one pre-release firmware and therefore no guarantee that ya'll were shooting a pre-release IQ180 with the same firmware.
 
Guy Mancuso

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Very true and also our power management system was off so I certainly would not look into that in any bad way. They will NEVER deliver anything that is not up to the correct logical speed. Doug will be getting the same back( pretty sure) as we used so he can also double check this . But honestly it was faster than i thought it would be pushing a 80 mpx raw around. I would have bought our prototype in a heart beat but the power management system was not on so in the end it sucked batteries faster than i could count. Obviously that will get fixed
 
tashley

tashley

Subscriber Member
Ah!... I didn't check the power management settings. If the shipping version zooms to 100% in three seconds or less I will likely end up getting one. Does anyone know if the focus mask is due to work in live view?
 
Guy Mancuso

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Don't quote me but I think it does but I can check this. I'm not hesitating, damn thing rocked my world.
 
G

gazwas

Active member
This is exactly my worry with the new IQ's.

It all sounds fantastic but I've not seen any proof of liveview working yet. I'm all set to jump on the early adopters price reduction promo but if liveview and focus mask doesn't quite work as promised then I'd prefer to save my money and go with a P+ back.

I'm buying for use on a Tech camera and if I still need to haul a computer with me on location to accurately check focus then the extra price for new backs seems pointless.

I do wish there was more clarification about this rather than lots of reports of how nice the screen looks..... :(
 
Guy Mancuso

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Regardless of live view or focus mask after handling the IQ 180 just the zoom feature alone from 100-400 percent you can certainly confirm focus by a country mile. The LCD resolution is that good. Go back to our review and watch the first 3 minutes of the video when I shot the product shot and looked at the image at 100 percent. That will give you a good clue how good that focus confirmation works. Focus mask my bet will be just like C1. That's MY bet
 
tashley

tashley

Subscriber Member
Just an update: I had an email from the UK area rep, Eric Joakim (an incredibly helpful guy who had a knee operation a coupla days ago and yet is still working!) and he had a quote from the R&D guys:


'This slow 100% zoom is only caused by the firmware in the prototype. The final version gives you more or less immediate 100% zoom – assuming that you have a very fast CF card. For the prototype: Zooming at the same time as an image is being stored to the CF card slows both processes down, so it is usually better to wait a short moment, and then zoom.'

He also said that 'the first batch of IQ180 backs is due April so the final shipping version will not be ready before the promo upgrade period finishes'

In other words, for those concerned about getting the upgrade pricing deal, they will have to do so on faith rather than first hand experience. I'll happily do that - Phase is a good company - but I will probably want to hear that Live View works in daylight and might also want to hear that focus mask works in Live View. The reason I would prefer this to merely shooting then zooming is that when working with movements on a tech cam, especially when taking shifted frames to be stitched, the fewer frames you take the easier it is to match your LCCs to your shots later. A CF card littered with test shots makes it easier for a klutz like me to screw that up! Other more skilled or intelligent users might be happy with the near instant zoom alone!
 
G

gazwas

Active member
Well I'd really like to see a video posted on Phases website in the "in action" section of the IQ backs page with a working demo of liveview and focus mask. Makes me wonder why such a massive feature (bigger deal than 80MP IMO) is not flogged to death.... unless it just doesn't work yet?

The pessimist in me is niggling me by saying it works so badly that they figured best not show it working as not to take the sale hype away from the new chassis.

Please don't let this be true as I've been waiting a long time for digi back with these amazing features.

Come on Phase, put us all out of our misery.
 
J

Joseph Woodland

Member
It seems to me that dealers and reviewers are really downplaying these two very important and expensive features - like they don't really expect them to work very well so just go ahead and buy the back anyway. I'm sorry, but I DO expect both of these features to work as advertised, otherwise Phase is going to have one pissed-off customer on their hands asking for a refund (I ordered the IQ180 the first day possible, and will be paying a lot for those two new features). I'm funny that way, and expect to get what I pay for. If they are still unsure about these features then they should have never advertised them in the first place.

However I do think that there is no way they will ship any of these backs to regular customers in April - considering they don't even have either of these two major features working on their prototypes - and we are now two months away from promised delivery (I guess they could deliver one or two to dealers, but I would really be surprised if they fill orders that were placed last week - I hope they prove me wrong!). It would be a big letdown if we had to wait until summer (or later) for delivery of fully-working backs.
 
D

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
gazwas said:
Well I'd really like to see a video posted on Phases website in the "in action" section of the IQ backs page with a working demo of liveview and focus mask. Makes me wonder why such a massive feature (bigger deal than 80MP IMO) is not flogged to death.... unless it just doesn't work yet?
Click to expand...
The first time a feature (especially a brand new feature) is shown is a huge part of how it is perceived by the market forever. Therefore I would expect that neither feature will be shown in public until it looks about as good/fast/clean as they expect to get it by the time of the launch.

If for instance they showed a version today which was 1fps and by the time it launches it was 3fps then I can guarantee you that two years from now a significant number of potential buyers would still have the impression it maxed out at 1fps.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
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G

gazwas

Active member
dougpetersonci said:
The first time a feature (especially a brand new feature) is shown is a huge part of how it is perceived by the market forever. Therefore I would expect that neither feature will be shown in public until it looks about as good/fast/clean as they expect to get it by the time of the launch.
Click to expand...
As long as its not just another Capture One 4........ Very late and never work very well. :)
 
Steve Hendrix

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Joseph Woodland said:
It seems to me that dealers and reviewers are really downplaying these two very important and expensive features - like they don't really expect them to work very well so just go ahead and buy the back anyway. I'm sorry, but I DO expect both of these features to work as advertised, otherwise Phase is going to have one pissed-off customer on their hands asking for a refund (I ordered the IQ180 the first day possible, and will be paying a lot for those two new features). I'm funny that way, and expect to get what I pay for. If they are still unsure about these features then they should have never advertised them in the first place.

However I do think that there is no way they will ship any of these backs to regular customers in April - considering they don't even have either of these two major features working on their prototypes - and we are now two months away from promised delivery (I guess they could deliver one or two to dealers, but I would really be surprised if they fill orders that were placed last week - I hope they prove me wrong!). It would be a big letdown if we had to wait until summer (or later) for delivery of fully-working backs.
Click to expand...

In every conversation I have had with my customers regarding IQ Series products, I have cautioned about expectations for the Live View.

From all of the experience I have had with CCD-based, computer driven Live View from every digital back that ever offered it (Sinar, Leaf, Hasselblad, Phase One, Jenoptik), I can say that I have reservations about how miraculously it will work. I am not expecting 5DMK-II quality video. Will it be usable? Quite possibly, for many.

The biggest issue they have to deal with is taming the light, which even in studio conditions on a computer is a challenge. CCD sensors get overwhelmed and underwhelmed easily. I wonder if Phase One is working on using Sensor Plus to help with the underwhelmed light situations, meaning that even if you are in full rez mode, the Live View can display in Sensor Plus mode? I have no idea, just a (hopeful) guess.

But the overwhelming light situations (like bright sunlight) are the bigger issue to my mind. From what I have heard, there has been progress in dealing with this, which if this is true, would represent quite a breakthrough, and bodes well even for those who would still want to use Live View on a computer.

But that is why I am being cautious. You are buying a product that will have Live View, but there are no details about the quality of the Live View. And you should be aware that there are no guarantees it will be stunning. 5DMK-II type video quality.

The Focus Mask I am less concerned about. With all the new processing power in the IQ series, I expect Focus Mask (and who knows what other features added down the line) to work well. It appears to me to be a platform that can grow in terms of in-camera functionality.

There are many cameras that offer in-camera Live View, all of varying quality. Anyone ordering for the Live View feature should have a realistic discussion of CCD-based Live View quality with whoever they're ordering from.


Steve Hendrix
 
J

Joseph Woodland

Member
That's kind of what I'm talking about Steve - Live View is being touted as the second coming of Christ for digital backs and yet it sounds like they don't have any idea if it will even work as advertised or not (I'm not talking about "stunning" - only to work as advertised). I do expect it to work and work well - especially since I am paying so much for this feature and it is one of the main selling points of this new series of backs. If they were not sure if it would work as advertised or not then why did they hype it so much? (To sell backs of course, ha, ha!)

I'm confident that Phase will get it right, I just hope it doesn't take them too long to deliver, or wait until the next version of IQ backs to get it right with some lame-duck version on this most expensive back in the world this time around. Lots of crossed fingers I'm sure - on both sides of the room.
 
Guy Mancuso

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Here is my take and do not take this to the bank because it may just bounce. Now just because i just reviewed it does not mean i know something but my personal take on Live view and focus mask is this. It's intellectual property and it is already done or very near done but Phase will not let anyone see it or review it until it ships or very close to it. Think about it, if it was showed off last week 3 months before delivery and it's competition is sitting out there in right field watching, need I go on here. Some things are better left unsaid or in this case unveiled. Just a thought

Also I agree with Steve's comments.
 
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