CV announces 50 1.1 Nokton

[Erik Five]

No link, but Tom Abrahamsson tested it in March. There is some examples in his flickr stream. He says retail is about 1100$. Something tells me its gonna be a best seller He says it looks like a 1.5 Nokton on steroids with E58.

[drazin]

can you link to his flickr?

[johnastovall]

Here are his sample images...

[drazin]

id buy it!

[johnastovall]

I've sent Stephen an email ask when he'll start taking deposits.

[johnastovall]

Mr. Gandy is now taking deposits US$100.00 down and refundable.

[drazin]

who?

[johnastovall]

Originally Posted by drazin

who?

Stephen Gandy of CameraQuest.

[beamon]

Here's the link: http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/s...4&postcount=64

[johnastovall]

Mike Johnson's report on the Nokton f/1.1 at TOP.

Voigtlaender Nokton 50mm f/1.1 in Leica M Mount

[woodyspedden]

Just put down my $100 deposit with Stephen at Cameraquest. I have no idea when the lens might be available but I wanted to get in line early because if this lens is declared "good" by the early users there will be a frenzy to get one! If it is priced at $1300 as predicted it will be sold to all of those who lust after a Nocti but will never pay over $6K to get one. JMHO

Woody

[LJL]

Having the CV 50mm f1.5 Nokton (their older iteration), and the CV 35mm f1.2 Nokton, I can say that both are quite good lenses, and for the cost, are very nice. I actually carry both the 50/1.5 and my Leica 50/1.0 Noctilux in the bag, as I find that each has its own rather special delivery of the image. The Nokton tends to actually be a bit more sharp and contrasty, much like a Zeiss lens, which I prefer for the more "normal" look of things in slightly better light. The Noctilux is much harder to hit focus on at times, but it does deliver its classic look. If this new CV 50/1.1 Nokton is anything like their other Noktons, it could be a wonderful piece of kit for a much more reasonable price. Personally, I think the CVs are able to hit focus quicker than the Leica, and that is a constant plus at times when you need to get the shot sooner than later.

This is good to see.

LJ

[johnastovall]

Originally Posted by woodyspedden

Just put down my $100 deposit with Stephen at Cameraquest. I have no idea when the lens might be available but I wanted to get in line early because if this lens is declared "good" by the early users there will be a frenzy to get one! If it is priced at $1300 as predicted it will be sold to all of those who lust after a Nocti but will never pay over $6K to get one. JMHO

Woody

You beat me Woody..

I'm waiting on a payment from the local Chamber of Commerce for some stock shots off mine. My M7 put a major dent in my camera fund but I'm going to scrape up a deposit for this lens. I love fast lenses and each one has a different look. Oh, the joys of shooting by moonlight....

Is it possible that it will be just different and not worse than the leica?That really would be interesting.

[LJL]

Neil,
Who may have suggested it will be "worse" than the Noctilux? I think it will just be a different look....maybe. The test will be the bokeh, in my opinion. I know that the bokeh on my other Noktons is good, but maybe not as creamy smooth as the Noctilux. Truth be told, the drawing is so nice on all of them that unless you have really sharp, angular things in the out of focus area where the Noktons tend to draw a bit more contrast, it is hard to tell some images apart shooting wide open. And stopped down....well, hard to see the CVs giving up any ground. My hunch is that this 50/1.1 will be quite a good lens and be more than able to capture some great images for users.

LJ

[woodyspedden]

Originally Posted by LJL

Neil,
Who may have suggested it will be "worse" than the Noctilux? I think it will just be a different look....maybe. The test will be the bokeh, in my opinion. I know that the bokeh on my other Noktons is good, but maybe not as creamy smooth as the Noctilux. Truth be told, the drawing is so nice on all of them that unless you have really sharp, angular things in the out of focus area where the Noktons tend to draw a bit more contrast, it is hard to tell some images apart shooting wide open. And stopped down....well, hard to see the CVs giving up any ground. My hunch is that this 50/1.1 will be quite a good lens and be more than able to capture some great images for users.

LJ

I am very happy with the CV 35 1.2 Ultra nokton. only gripe is that it is huge! But there has to be a price to pay for quality glass that is really fast so i guess it is size and weight. If the new 50 1:1 attains the quality of the 35 1.2 I will be very happy. Heck I own the Hexanon 50 1.2 and I think it is one of the best M lenses made. But to get F1.0 at this price makes it (to me) a no brainer. Would I love to have a Nocti..........of course but I would also like a Porsche GTS and both are wonderful machines that are simply out of my price range.

So I will look forward to the new CV 50 1:1 and be happy. Way to go Mr Kobayashi!

Woody

[glenerrolrd]

How many 50 s can one photographer use? One more please!

[jonoslack]

Originally Posted by glenerrolrd

How many 50 s can one photographer use? One more please!

Hey Glen! I've only got 1 (zeiss 50 1.5 sonnar). Does that mean that I really can buy this one?

I think so

[johnastovall]

Originally Posted by glenerrolrd

How many 50 s can one photographer use? One more please!

I'm up to 9 and counting. They all draw differently and one is SLR only. The other are S and M mounts...

[woodyspedden]

good lord, I just bought a Nikkor 50 1.4 last week from Cindy F. The truth is that all these lenses produce images that are different from one another. Sort of like trying to compare a Nocti with the 50Lux........apart from the FOV being identical almost nothing else is!

So let's hear it for a 50 pre-lux non asph; collabsible 50 elmar; 50 1.2 Hexanon; 50 1.4 Nikkor (1950's vintage) and next up is the 50 1:1 Nokton! Someone make me an offer or two. Even if I could afford all of these at my age (72) I can't carry all the damned things. LOL

A man has to retain some sins after all.

Woody

I have no idea when the Cosina 50/1.1 is coming. I have no idea if it'll be any good. I have no idea if I'll even have a job when it arrives, or how I would come up with the money to buy it.

But I've just PayPal'ed Stephen my deposit.

If it's as good as the 35/1.2 Nokton, I'll get a ton of use out of it on my Epson R-D 1 and Panasonic G1; it'll be great to have a less-quirky alternative to the images produced by my 50/0.95 Canon, and a full-stop-faster option for when the excellent 50/1.5 Nokton doesn't quite get it.

And I love the fact that Cosina boss Kobayashi is thumbing his nose at the mainstream photo-mag pundits who always say that nobody needs ultra-speed lenses anymore because zoom lenses and built-in flash can do it all.

Hey, Mister K, now we need a 75/1.5 Nokton to fill out the lineup...

[drazin]

M MOUNT! i just sent my deposit!

[Erik Five]

At this price its really a no brainer. If you get it early and dont like it you can probably easily sell it for the same amount again just because someone will be in line for a new one.

[pgmj]

The 1m close focus limit is a unpleasant surprise, though. My only gripe with the 50/1.5 is the 0.9m limit since I tend to use 50mm quite often for portraits with my R-D1s.

Originally Posted by pgmj

The 1m close focus limit is a unpleasant surprise, though. My only gripe with the 50/1.5 is the 0.9m limit since I tend to use 50mm quite often for portraits with my R-D1s.

Inconvenient, but it shouldn't be much of a surprise since there are few rangefinder-couple lenses that can get much closer than 0.9m or so. It's not that the manufacturers couldn't make the lenses focus closer -- it's just that the optical and mechanical limitations of a rangefinder camera make it difficult to take advantage of closer focus.

To name two:

-- The lens couples to the rangefinder via a pivoted arm in the camera that swings back and forth, and there are both mechanical and geometric limits on how far this arm can pivot.

-- The rangefinder and viewfinder windows have to converge their viewing angles on the subject as you focus closer; eventually it's possible to get so close that the two windows are seeing the subject from noticeably different viewpoints, which makes it hard to line up the images. I used to have some prismatic "Auto-Up" close-up attachments for my Canon VI-T, and at the closest distances the finder view got noticeably "cross-eyed"!

It's possible to design specific lenses -- Leica makes one -- that will focus closer, using viewfinder and extension attachments to get around the above problems -- but they're still a bit cumbersome and not nearly as flexible as what you can do with a camera that permits through-lens focusing.

[pgmj]

Actually it isn't all that unusual with 50mm RF lenses that focus to 0.7m (which is adequate for my needs). I ended up getting a Konica M-Hexanon 50/2 in addition to my 50/1.5 Nokton. Then again, the Noctilux also has the 1m limit, so I guess you are right about the "not much of a surprise".

Some other 50mm lenses that focus to 0.7m:

2/50 ZM
SUMMILUX-M 50 mm f/1.4 ASPH
SUMMICRON-M 50mm f/2

Originally Posted by pgmj

Actually it isn't all that unusual with 50mm RF lenses that focus to 0.7m (which is adequate for my needs). I ended up getting a Konica M-Hexanon 50/2 in addition to my 50/1.5 Nokton. Then again, the Noctilux also has the 1m limit, so I guess you are right about the "not much of a surprise".

Some other 50mm lenses that focus to 0.7m:

2/50 ZM
SUMMILUX-M 50 mm f/1.4 ASPH
SUMMICRON-M 50mm f/2

True enough, although you're not going to get down to the 0.5m or so that's typical for SLR lenses.

Another potential wrinkle: Even if the lens extends enough to focus to 0.7m, the camera may not couple at that distance. It depends on the mechanics of the rangefinder coupling arm, and this may vary from one camera model to the next.

Of course that's not an issue if you're going to be using it on your Micro Four Thirds camera :-)

[drazin]

anyone have any updates on a release date?

[vieri]

Originally Posted by Ranger 9

True enough, although you're not going to get down to the 0.5m or so that's typical for SLR lenses.

Another potential wrinkle: Even if the lens extends enough to focus to 0.7m, the camera may not couple at that distance. It depends on the mechanics of the rangefinder coupling arm, and this may vary from one camera model to the next.

Of course that's not an issue if you're going to be using it on your Micro Four Thirds camera :-)

Leica M cameras' RF are coupled down to, and do focus as close as, .7 mt. By definition of RF, the focussing system on camera is not dependent on the lens; so, even if you put a .5 mt focussing lens on a .7 mt focussing M cameras you still get coupling down to .7 mt: after that, the lens' focussing ring turns, but nothing happens in your RF window. On the contrary, if your lens just focus to 1 mt, you loose .3 cm of possible RF movement, hence the previous poster's disappointment. A .7 mt focussing Nokton f1.1 would have worked just fine down to .7 mt on Leica cameras.

[jonoslack]

Originally Posted by vieri

Leica M cameras' RF are coupled down to, and do focus as close as, .7 mt. By definition of RF, the focussing system on camera is not dependent on the lens; so, even if you put a .5 mt focussing lens on a .7 mt focussing M cameras you still get coupling down to .7 mt: after that, the lens' focussing ring turns, but nothing happens in your RF window. On the contrary, if your lens just focus to 1 mt, you loose .3 cm of possible RF movement, hence the previous poster's disappointment. A .7 mt focussing Nokton f1.1 would have worked just fine down to .7 mt on Leica cameras.

HI Vieri
I hope you're flourishing.
Close focusing seems to be an issue with very fast lenses, the Leica Nocti only goes down to 1 meter, as does that nice Zeiss you sold me (50 1.5 sonnar - I still use it often, and the 25 f2.8). Wide angle seems simpler (or perhaps it's just considered more important).

[vieri]

Originally Posted by jonoslack

HI Vieri
I hope you're flourishing.
Close focusing seems to be an issue with very fast lenses, the Leica Nocti only goes down to 1 meter, as does that nice Zeiss you sold me (50 1.5 sonnar - I still use it often, and the 25 f2.8). Wide angle seems simpler (or perhaps it's just considered more important).

Hi Jono, great to hear from you! I am doing very well though very busy, how about you? Indeed you are right about some (many, perhaps even too many, depending on one's tolerance level )lenses focussing just down to 1 mt; what I was trying to point out was that the poster who said

"Even if the lens extends enough to focus to 0.7m, the camera may not couple at that distance."

was putting the blame on the wrong side of the camera-lens duo. Leica M cameras of today do couple their RF and focus down to .7 mt, then it's up to the lens to use this range or not: some lenses do exactly focus to .7 mt, some farther away (.9 or 1 mt), some, though, focus even closer than the .7 mt limit: for instance, the Super Angulon and other wides do focus down to .3 - .4 mt, but in this case the cameras RF will uncouple after .7 mt. So my point is that the poster I quoted above is incorrect in his statement; if a camera-lens combination does not focus closer than 1 mt is a lens limitation, not a camera one.

On another note, I am glad you are still enjoying the Sonnar! Me, I replaced the 21 I took from your hands with a 3.4/21 Super Angulon which is about my most used lens on the street...

Off topic: I will be in the UK end of June - would you care for a beer or two?

Originally Posted by vieri

what I was trying to point out was that the poster who said

[here he quotes my post about mechanical travel of the coupling arm being a possible limitation in close focusing of rangefinder cameras]

was putting the blame on the wrong side of the camera-lens duo. Leica M cameras of today do couple their RF and focus down to .7 mt, then it's up to the lens to use this range or not...

Leica is not the only maker of M-mount cameras...

[vieri]

Originally Posted by Ranger 9

Leica is not the only maker of M-mount cameras...

Bessa R: .9 mt
Bessa T: .9 mt

Zeiss Ikon: I couldn't find the info anywhere.
Russian M copies: same as the above.

Leica Ms: .7 mt

Now, there are hundreds of thousands of Leica Ms out there, slightly less Bessas... this is why I mentioned Leica Ms in my reply.

As well, on a different note: no matter what camera one uses, many lenses do not couple down to .7 (or less): fast lenses, long(er) lenses, old(er) lenses tend to have longer minimum focus distances. Which was my point: despite your last point, statistically one have a much higher chance to be limited by the lens than the camera.

[woodyspedden]

Originally Posted by glenerrolrd

How many 50 s can one photographer use? One more please!

I guess the answer is one more than you currently own LOL. We are all nuts so lets get certified

Your German Pal

Voody the gear slut........Jawol!

Best

Have the most fun ever in Paris

[St Clair]

Looks like the release date has been pushed back in Japan to June 29th. I'm on the reserve list and the store price still hasn't been decided.

[drazin]

damn! i cant wait!

Originally Posted by drazin

damn! i cant wait!

I can -- it'll give me more time to save up the money!

[gDallasK]

Robert White are taking £100 deposit against early deliveries. I don't know when they'll have the product though.

[drazin]

GOT MINE! its sweeet. will post scans when i can.

[St Clair]

Got mine a few days ago, you can see some images on my latest blog post if anyone is interested.

http://www.stclair-photography.com/blog/

[ampguy]

About 25% of my RF photos are < .7m. From 50/1.4 lux (e46), 75/1.4 lux, 35/2 cron, and even M-Hexanon 28/2.8.

Originally Posted by Ranger 9

Inconvenient, but it shouldn't be much of a surprise since there are few rangefinder-couple lenses that can get much closer than 0.9m or so. It's not that the manufacturers couldn't make the lenses focus closer -- it's just that the optical and mechanical limitations of a rangefinder camera make it difficult to take advantage of closer focus.

To name two:

-- The lens couples to the rangefinder via a pivoted arm in the camera that swings back and forth, and there are both mechanical and geometric limits on how far this arm can pivot.

-- The rangefinder and viewfinder windows have to converge their viewing angles on the subject as you focus closer; eventually it's possible to get so close that the two windows are seeing the subject from noticeably different viewpoints, which makes it hard to line up the images. I used to have some prismatic "Auto-Up" close-up attachments for my Canon VI-T, and at the closest distances the finder view got noticeably "cross-eyed"!

It's possible to design specific lenses -- Leica makes one -- that will focus closer, using viewfinder and extension attachments to get around the above problems -- but they're still a bit cumbersome and not nearly as flexible as what you can do with a camera that permits through-lens focusing.

Originally Posted by ampguy

About 25% of my RF photos are < .7m. From 50/1.4 lux (e46), 75/1.4 lux, 35/2 cron, and even M-Hexanon 28/2.8.

Oh, for goodness' sake, for the benefit of the people who have been beating me up over my original post: yes, out of the hundreds of RF camera models and thousands of RF-coupled lens types produced over the past 80 years or so, there are a few (mostly recent) that permit closer focusing than the traditional limit of 1 meter or so.

Some of those lenses that focus closer don't necessarily support rangefinder coupling at the closer distances, and some lenses that couple at closer distances on some camera models don't necessarily couple at closer distances on other camera models. And you'll be very hard-pressed to find any camera-and-lens combos that focus down to the SLR standard of roughly 18 inches or so, at least not without cumbersome accessories. And those that do are still a bit difficult to use because of the "cross-eyed rangefinder" problem I noted in my original post.

But, let me reiterate, YES, there are SOME RF-coupled lenses that focus significantly closer than one meter, and SOME RF cameras that will couple at those closer distances, and that in implying (although not stating) otherwise I was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrongedy-wrong-wrong, and I'm very, very sorry, and I promise that I will never, ever post anything technical about rangefinder cameras or lenses on GetDPI ever again.

Happy now? Good!

[jonoslack]

Originally Posted by Ranger 9

Oh, for goodness' sake, for the benefit of the people who have been beating me up over my original post: yes, out of the hundreds of RF camera models and thousands of RF-coupled lens types produced over the past 80 years or so, there are a few (mostly recent) that permit closer focusing than the traditional limit of 1 meter or so.

Some of those lenses that focus closer don't necessarily support rangefinder coupling at the closer distances, and some lenses that couple at closer distances on some camera models don't necessarily couple at closer distances on other camera models. And you'll be very hard-pressed to find any camera-and-lens combos that focus down to the SLR standard of roughly 18 inches or so, at least not without cumbersome accessories. And those that do are still a bit difficult to use because of the "cross-eyed rangefinder" problem I noted in my original post.

But, let me reiterate, YES, there are SOME RF-coupled lenses that focus significantly closer than one meter, and SOME RF cameras that will couple at those closer distances, and that in implying (although not stating) otherwise I was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrongedy-wrong-wrong, and I'm very, very sorry, and I promise that I will never, ever post anything technical about rangefinder cameras or lenses on GetDPI ever again.

I should think so too

[ampguy]

Anyone with a proper Leica M mount body (or even Hexar AF or Zeiss, Bessa, etc.) can RF couple down to 0.7m. No need for scale focus only at < 1m.

Originally Posted by Ranger 9

Oh, for goodness' sake, for the benefit of the people who have been beating me up over my original post: yes, out of the hundreds of RF camera models and thousands of RF-coupled lens types produced over the past 80 years or so, there are a few (mostly recent) that permit closer focusing than the traditional limit of 1 meter or so.

Some of those lenses that focus closer don't necessarily support rangefinder coupling at the closer distances, and some lenses that couple at closer distances on some camera models don't necessarily couple at closer distances on other camera models. And you'll be very hard-pressed to find any camera-and-lens combos that focus down to the SLR standard of roughly 18 inches or so, at least not without cumbersome accessories. And those that do are still a bit difficult to use because of the "cross-eyed rangefinder" problem I noted in my original post.

But, let me reiterate, YES, there are SOME RF-coupled lenses that focus significantly closer than one meter, and SOME RF cameras that will couple at those closer distances, and that in implying (although not stating) otherwise I was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrongedy-wrong-wrong, and I'm very, very sorry, and I promise that I will never, ever post anything technical about rangefinder cameras or lenses on GetDPI ever again.

Happy now? Good!

Guess you weren't happy after all, huh?

How about if I promise to give myself 20 lashes with a Luigi neckstrap?

[helenhill]

Originally Posted by Ranger 9

Guess you weren't happy after all, huh?

How about if I promise to give myself 20 lashes with a Luigi neckstrap?

YOU are Whacked out..but do LOVE your sense of Humor...

[drazin]

I am really enjoying the new Nokton 1.1

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dankste...7621061171965/

have look at this set of pictures i took with it on an m7

[espressogeek]

I'd like to see a Nokton 50/1.1 and 35/1.2 image thread on here. I say that because I have not seen anything from either one that just knocks my socks off and I wish I could say otherwise.

Originally Posted by espressogeek

I'd like to see a Nokton 50/1.1 and 35/1.2 image thread on here. I say that because I have not seen anything from either one that just knocks my socks off and I wish I could say otherwise.

I'm not sure there'd be any point, since what knocks one person's socks off might leave another blasé and fully stockinged. And pictures downsampled enough to view easily in a web forum are likely to lose the attributes that contribute to lens-sockknockoffery.

Also, this probably isn't the place for it, since it's the Leica forum and the Noktons are non-Leica lenses that can be, and are, used on other flavors of cameras as well. (Besides, Leica enthusiasts tend to be determinedly sock-retentive over any lenses that don't say "Wetzlar" on them.)

In fact, my own socks are pretty knockoff-resistant. All I'll say about the two Noktons is that I like the idea of lenses that let me produce detailed low-light pictures and that I can afford to buy. It's worth noting that if you want to go out and shop for an M-mount ultraspeed 50 -- and if you want a current-production item, with modern coatings and stuff, that you can buy new -- your only other alternative costs ten thousand dollars and isn't generally available yet.

Still, in the spirit of the thing, here are a couple of pictures which I think might show some of the utility of these lenses even though they're unlikely to achieve sock knockoff. Both were made at full aperture and include a pixel-for-pixel detail view:

35/1.2 Nokton --

50/1.1 Nokton --

[Note that critical DOF doesn't even extend from the front eyelashes to the back ones! I suspect a lot of people are going to subject this lens to wholly irrelevant flat-chart "test" photos of newspapers, brick walls and such, and conclude that it's "unsharp" and "mushy"... when in fact it's their focusing accuracy that's at fault!]

It was too hot to go outside today, so I did some more experiments (NOT "lens tests") with the 50/1.1 Nokton, and wrote up my observations on my blog.