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Old 22nd December 2011   #1
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Thumbs up Interesting rumor!

Sony rumor site reports a possible full frame mirrorless camera from Sony very soon.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-s...llframe-nex-7/

If it comes to fruition, superb!
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Old 22nd December 2011   #2
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Re: Interesting rumor!

yes Vivek. The real thing is finally coming! Full frame and all the good lenses.

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Old 22nd December 2011   #3
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Pleasing rumors, Michiel.

First the AA less D800 from Nikon (least expected!) and now this! I truly hope that camera makers are done with introducing different colored bodies and start to come up with something with value.
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Old 22nd December 2011   #4
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
Sony rumor site reports a possible full frame mirrorless camera from Sony very soon.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-s...llframe-nex-7/

If it comes to fruition, superb!
My only concern with this rumor is the "crop mode" for E-Mount lenses. I hope SONY makes it a selectable mode (crop/uncropped) so we can use the lenses at their native focal length if desired. Think adapted lenses, full frame at their native length.
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Old 22nd December 2011   #5
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Yes itīs coming and this wind will blow like a tornado.
Just imagine this will be the 36Mpix chip from the Nikon D800..... !!!!
(which is most certainly made by Sony as all the Nikon chips)
Now Leica M or Zeiss ZM glass on this and then: Have FUN !
I donīt have to say what happens with the smaller MF stuff in this scenario.

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Old 22nd December 2011   #6
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Show Performance View Post
My only concern with this rumor is the "crop mode" for E-Mount lenses. I hope SONY makes it a selectable mode (crop/uncropped) so we can use the lenses at their native focal length if desired. Think adapted lenses, full frame at their native length.
I'd bet the crop mode will work just like on the A900 with Sony aps-c lenses. The e-mount lenses will communicate electronically to the body that it should crop to aps-c. Manual lenses should be fine, since they don't communicate anything to the camera body.

I'm betting such a camera will be similar to the NEX-7 with the LA-EA2 adapter, but the focusing motor will probably be in the body, making the a-mount extension more streamlined and less complicated.
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Old 22nd December 2011   #7
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Re: Interesting rumor!

I wonder where this leaves the A99 36 Mpx FF sensor SLT camera that many of us are waiting for?

Perhaps Sony are leaving this market sector to Nikon's A800?
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Old 22nd December 2011   #8
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Re: Interesting rumor!

The Nikon is also still a rumour technically remember. 2012 will certainly be a fascinating year for equipment however, the year when mirrorless becomes mainstream.
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Old 22nd December 2011   #9
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Built-in new generation OLED viewfinder.... does it mean the same as the Nex7 or a new generation?
Questions... questions....
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Old 22nd December 2011   #10
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Pardon me for perhaps asking something obvious, but what is meant by a global shutter?
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Old 22nd December 2011   #11
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Re: Interesting rumor!

"A GLOBAL SHUTTER exposes the entire imager simultaneously. The entire frame is exposed and begins gathering light; when the predetermined “shutter speed” has elapsed, the sensor stops gathering light and turns its current exposure into an electronic image. There is no physical “shutter” that covers and uncovers the sensor; it’s all done with timing. At the start of exposure the entire sensor starts gathering light; at the end of exposure the light-gathering circuitry is turned off and the contents of the sensor are then “read out” to become an image."*




*http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/



hopE this hELps...
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Old 22nd December 2011   #12
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Quote:
the year when mirrorless becomes mainstream
Indeed. If this camera comes to pass, I will definitely get one. Imagine it with a CV 50mm Nokton 50/1.5... honestly, my dream go-anywhere camera. What the X-100 could have been, frankly.
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Old 23rd December 2011   #13
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Great news. Times to fight GAS, sit tight and wait for the real deal.
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Old 23rd December 2011   #14
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
Yes itīs coming and this wind will blow like a tornado.
I donīt have to say what happens with the smaller MF stuff in this scenario.


Stefan
Somebody just bought a NEX7 for USD 3500 on e-bay. I hope the write off will be at least tax deductible
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Old 23rd December 2011   #15
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Hmmm. Well, I can see the point,and I'll find it tough to resist, but if the IQ from the NEX7 is as good as MR seems to think, then perhaps it'll be enough for lots of circumstances. Presumably it'll be a NEX9

As for the A99 - I don't see any indication that the NEX9 will stop the A99 - after all, it's not really that different - except in form factor; in just the same way that the NEX7 is not really that different from the A77 - except in form factor and AF speed. I think that there will be a demand for the form factor and AF speed.

How splendid to be able to have a small flexible camera . . . . and a fast substantial camera with the same sensor and lenses . . . with the possibility of using M lenses on the smaller body.

Very exciting
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Old 23rd December 2011   #16
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Re: Interesting rumor!

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Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
the year when mirrorless becomes mainstream.

I am unsure of this (ie 2012) despite being one of the early adapters and strong supporters of mirrorless.

There is a storm because of the old lenses kicking around and the possibility to use hundreds of different lenses on tiny cameras. Beyond that, there is pretty much very little.

None of the manufacturers thus far have shown any inkling towards developing a proper flash/lighting system for the mirrorless cams.

I think the potential for the manufacturers are enormous in this area and for the end user, it will a game changing addition when they are available. Creative lighting as we have never seen before and at our finger tips in very compact packages.
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Old 23rd December 2011   #17
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Re: Interesting rumor!

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Great news. Times to fight GAS, sit tight and wait for the real deal.
Yep! All good things come to those who wait.

All my delicious AF Alpha mount Ziess ZAs, and with adapters the M optics ... FF has my vote and money.

Good, now I don't have to even consider anything else until this rumor gets proved or disproved.

-Marc
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Old 23rd December 2011   #18
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Re: Interesting rumor!

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Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
Yes itīs coming and this wind will blow like a tornado.
Just imagine this will be the 36Mpix chip from the Nikon D800..... !!!!
(which is most certainly made by Sony as all the Nikon chips)
Now Leica M or Zeiss ZM glass on this and then: Have FUN !
I donīt have to say what happens with the smaller MF stuff in this scenario.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
That's because there is nothing to say Stefan ... except the "smaller" MFD sensors are already 40 meg now, and the sensor is larger than any 35mm will ever be. Simple math

-Marc
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Old 23rd December 2011   #19
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Marc

you are an optimist. But who should better be judging this than the consumer ? I also think there will be people left who want to pay 4-5 times more for a larger package with less comfort, no Video and maybe a minimum of better results (which nobody really knows yet, donīt forget about autofocus, lowlight focusing with lifepicture...) , but how many will this be ?

I know some people donīt want to hear this, but thatīs ok for me.

Have a nice christmas

Stefan
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Old 23rd December 2011   #20
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Re: Interesting rumor!

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Marc

you are an optimist. But who should better be judging this than the consumer ? I also think there will be people left who want to pay 4-5 times more for a larger package with less comfort, no Video and maybe a minimum of better results (which nobody really knows yet, donīt forget about autofocus, lowlight focusing with lifepicture...) , but how many will this be ?

I know some people donīt want to hear this, but thatīs ok for me.

Have a nice christmas

Stefan
Well, the comparison you made was to the entry level of MFD ... which is already 40 meg, larger sensor at the low end ... not maybe, or an unknown, it already IS ... and features AF, plus, in some cases modular in design allowing a vast choice of applications using lenses that outperform most any 35mm optic, even from Leica.

Live view is definitely a plus for certain applications, and I believe we will see it on a CMOS Leica M10 ... however, MFD will solve it in other ways as Phase One has begun to already prove with the IQ backs ... and I believe we will see more of that innovation in future, but continuously improved for users of systems dedicated to IQ, and real world working needs.

I think you continually confuse enthusiastic consumer with dedicated photographer.

-Marc
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Old 23rd December 2011   #21
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Still wondering how a hybrid bayonet would be designed, as the flange focal distance of the A-series is larger than the E-series. The E lens would have to go inside the A bayonet? Not impossible but might mean some vignetting for large aperture A lenses as the E bayonet would get in the way.
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Old 23rd December 2011   #22
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
Marc

you are an optimist. But who should better be judging this than the consumer ? I also think there will be people left who want to pay 4-5 times more for a larger package with less comfort, no Video and maybe a minimum of better results (which nobody really knows yet, donīt forget about autofocus, lowlight focusing with lifepicture...) , but how many will this be ?

I know some people donīt want to hear this, but thatīs ok for me.

Have a nice christmas

Stefan


Man, if only my 645D had video, those great scene selector exposure modes, a few art filters, and sweep panorama, I could be a kick-*** photographer. And with 10 frames a second and a 5mm to 5000mm zoom, I would never miss the shot! It just needs a way to play MP3 files, surf the internet, and make phone calls to be perfect.

Stefan, you are confusing photographic technology with photography. I am more interested in the later. And while the engineers in the fine manufacturing companies have done great things with their equipment, THE defining quality of good photography is not the gear.

BTW, strawman arguments are fairly useless--for example, the 645D is one of the most comfortable cameras I have ever used (it beats all those small mirrorless cameras, one of which I own). Nor does dismissing arguments against your statement before they are made--that just indicates you think your bias is the only correct world view, but the world will contradict that.
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Old 23rd December 2011   #23
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Re: Interesting rumor!

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Still wondering how a hybrid bayonet would be designed, as the flange focal distance of the A-series is larger than the E-series. The E lens would have to go inside the A bayonet? Not impossible but might mean some vignetting for large aperture A lenses as the E bayonet would get in the way.
it may be as simple as a lens adapter that is sold with the body. Or it could be with a collapsable mount and mount adapter.
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Old 23rd December 2011   #24
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Interesting news, but it will be interesting to see how many legacy lenses can actually handle 36MP on a 35mm frame (if that is the sensor they're going to use). Most of the old lenses were designed for lower resolution film and even many of the newer lenses were designed long before 36MP were anticipated. I have nothing against high pixel sensors, but I question the usefulness on small sensors. (But the, I'm biased. I just bought another 12MP camera )
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Old 23rd December 2011   #25
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Re: Interesting rumor!

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Interesting news, but it will be interesting to see how many legacy lenses can actually handle 36MP on a 35mm frame (if that is the sensor they're going to use). Most of the old lenses were designed for lower resolution film and even many of the newer lenses were designed long before 36MP were anticipated. I have nothing against high pixel sensors, but I question the usefulness on small sensors. (But the, I'm biased. I just bought another 12MP camera )
Nothing wrong with oversampling. You may not get a great image for pixel peeping, but you will still get an image (equal to or) better than a smaller MP sensor.
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Old 24th December 2011   #26
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Marc and Shashin

if you have followed my posts the last over 300 ones you may have also read that there is only one thing that I really care for : a good picture !
I do not care the slightest little bit about how this picture is done.
Technology is just a helper for getting the image as good and as intuitive as it can be .

Now take a look at your argumentations: You propose itīs ONLY possible to shoot decent images with 30000 $ gear and up ? Which is bigger, heavier, less versatile and 5 to 10 times more expensive ? You implement that the lowly 1000 $ camera user is unable to achieve any decent image ?
Is there any logics left or do you forget this is the Sony part of the Forum.
I would not have posted this to the MF forum anymore because Iīm tired of the ongoing MF praise. I have used and use MF Digital from Day one, with all backs, with about any camera, we sell it and I have even develloped one.

But hey - think about it as a young and innocent photographer who just wants to take images, wouldnīt you also take a close look at this technology revolution ? You really want to carry that heavy bag with the 50 k $ and 15KG of equipment for a whole day on your aching(and aging) shoulder ?

I donīt !

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Last edited by Stefan Steib; 24th December 2011 at 02:45.
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Old 24th December 2011   #27
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Re: Interesting rumor!

The next big thing to hit the market appears to be 36MP large area sensored live view cameras. Square sensors are the ones rumored. There is a huge competitive storm brewing.

It is only in Sony's interest to offset the apparent efforts from Samsung, Olympus (not dead yet ) and Ricoh/Pentax.

I for one am not too attached to the Leica lenses, in terms of monetary "investment", or anything else. From the vast collection of exotic lenses I have, I do know that pretty much every manufacturer made fabulous lenses.
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Old 24th December 2011   #28
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
Marc and Shashin

if you have followed my posts the last over 300 ones you may have also read that there is only one thing that I really care for : a good picture !
I do not care the slightest little bit about how this picture is done.
Technology is just a helper for getting the image as good and as intuitive as it can be .

Now take a look at your argumentations: You propose itīs ONLY possible to shoot decent images with 30000 $ gear and up ? Which is bigger, heavier, less versatile and 5 to 10 times more expensive ? You implement that the lowly 1000 $ camera user is unable to achieve any decent image ?
Is there any logics left or do you forget this is the Sony part of the Forum.
I would not have posted this to the MF forum anymore because Iīm tired of the ongoing MF praise. I have used and use MF Digital from Day one, with all backs, with about any camera, we sell it and I have even develloped one.

But hey - think about it as a young and innocent photographer who just wants to take images, wouldnīt you also take a close look at this technology revolution ? You really want to carry that heavy bag with the 50 k $ and 15KG of equipment for a whole day on your aching(and aging) shoulder ?

I donīt !

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
False premiss ... I do not think, nor ever said, that a great photograph requires a $30K piece of gear ... if that were true, then virtually none of the great photos taken in past would exist.

Of course, if I were a young sprout eager to make my mark, I'd consider anything I could afford and not think anything of it ... I wasn't born with a silver Leica in my hands either. My first real camera was a beat up Canon FTB.

However, I did grow and moved on, and what came with that was demands from paying clients that necessitated different, more specialized gear. That in turn infected my own sensibilities and standards even for my private creative work. I didn't need more to express myself, I wanted more to make it look better. To not be limited creatively by the limits of the tools.

So IMO, your premiss is the flawed one ... to promote the notion that cramming more meg into a small sensor is the same as the larger sensor of MFD is where the train falls off the tracks. Even the guy instrumental in inventing CMOS disagrees with that premiss.

Even if they can pull it off, all this is doing is focusing the marketing element on an ever upward spiraling meg number instead of using technology to really advance art of photography ... like addressing real world needs. For example, not one of these 35mm companies has issued a RADIO controlled speed-light system to date. It's all useless infrared based that works for about as far as you can spit. Criminal neglect, with more consumer oriented marketing ploys, instead of photographic assistance where it could actually make a difference. Hundreds of thousands of wedding, event, and portrait photographers don't want more meg ... but I'd bet most would jump all over a radio controlled in-camera TTL wireless system. And that is just for starters.

While they are at it, it wouldn't kill them to spend some of that R&D, more meg sensor, cash to write and illustrate a cohesive manual or produce a DVD with someone that actually knows how to use the camera. Or stop rushing to market with beta cameras and letting us sort out the issues.

Merry Ho Ho Ho!

-Marc
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Old 24th December 2011   #29
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Marc

I beg to differ:

"Even if they can pull it off, all this is doing is focusing the marketing element on an ever upward spiraling meg number instead of using technology to really advance art of photography"

Which is what I see exactly on the current MF products !
The better usability, the smaller size, the openness of the systems and the advanced tools (life view!) that support professional image taking - this is whatīs lacking and which a company like Sony coming from the consumer electronics is delivering. Who cares for megapixels once they are well beyond 30 or maybe 40 ? I predict that in 2-3 years from now 50 % of photographers will show up on location for customers with mirrorless systems. Itīs the photographer that counts, not the camera - have faith !

;-)

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Old 24th December 2011   #30
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Re: Interesting rumor!

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Marc

I beg to differ:

"Even if they can pull it off, all this is doing is focusing the marketing element on an ever upward spiraling meg number instead of using technology to really advance art of photography"

Which is what I see exactly on the current MF products !
The better usability, the smaller size, the openness of the systems and the advanced tools (life view!) that support professional image taking - this is whatīs lacking and which a company like Sony coming from the consumer electronics is delivering. Who cares for megapixels once they are well beyond 30 or maybe 40 ? I predict that in 2-3 years from now 50 % of photographers will show up on location for customers with mirrorless systems. Itīs the photographer that counts, not the camera - have faith !

;-)

Regards
Stefan
I do feel that when you resort to the old chestnut, "It's the photographer that counts, not the camera" ... it's a bit counter to your previous stance... "you are tired of the on-going praise for MF on this site" ... but those are photographers who are so happy. So, the comment seems selective, and favors those who agree with you while discounting those photographers who don't.

While I do think there is always room for continuous and real-world improvement in all forms of cameras ... I also think there has most certainly been relentless improvement in MFD in the past 4-5 years.

The primary objective with MFD is IQ, otherwise there is no reason to use it. So, whatever additional improvements are made cannot be at the expense of IQ ... and I think the MFD companies have done an admirable job of sticking to that prime directive while making the cameras more versatile and easy to work with.

Heck, Hasselblad solved the off-center AF issue, and Phase has even taken the sync speed to 1600, have the option of an AIR radio as part of the system, and has the best LCD of any camera on the market. To me that is listening to the photographer's real world needs and providing technological solutions. How the MFD makers solve current needs or desires in future (like live view) may take a different turn of technology than conventional thinking may dictate. Hasselblads TF is a perfect example of this in action.

While Leica has introduced a new paradigm, it simply isn't a substitute for how many photographers use MFD ... and it is the photographers dictating this.

Lastly, and this is strictly my opinion ... I've seen this argument over the whole span of digital development, Where a 35mm DSLR is touted as the end of MFD ... Canon's S models for example. I even bought into that premiss and suffered for it. They have never fulfilled that promise in the categories of photography where MFD is used. Frankly, the more obvious repercussion to my eyes has been the lowering of standards of those who do buy into the premiss ... or they never needed what MFD delivers in the first place.

I for one celebrate this site's dedication to MFD photography and the incredible standards of many members in terms of both content and sheer image quality to go with it

I am a photographer, and I approve this message ...

-Marc




P.S., just yankin' your chain Stefan ... Merry Christmas!
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Old 24th December 2011   #31
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Re: Interesting rumor!

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For example, not one of these 35mm companies has issued a RADIO controlled speed-light system to date. It's all useless infrared based that works for about as far as you can spit. Criminal neglect, with more consumer oriented marketing ploys, instead of photographic assistance where it could actually make a difference. Hundreds of thousands of wedding, event, and portrait photographers don't want more meg ... but I'd bet most would jump all over a radio controlled in-camera TTL wireless system. And that is just for starters.
As a parenthesis in this discussion: Amen to that - I cannot believe how rigid Nikon has been, sticking to its infrared only CLS flash system. How hard can it be to make a radio system? I have a three-flash Nikon setup plus a separate transmitter, and I have to admit that while it is sometimes a usable setup, it's unreliable even at short range and therefore not useful. Yes, spitting range summarizes it. Compared to real lighting systems, it really is a toy.
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Old 24th December 2011   #32
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Want to know why the flash triggers are mainly all IR, not radio? RFI. Radio Frequency Interference. Radio signals fall into very crowded spectrum, what with all the WiFi and wireless connections these days. Getting approval (FCC in the US, others elsewhere) is neither simple nor is it fast. Elinchrome spent the better part of a year getting their units approved prior to offering them for sale in the USA. At a cost of over $100K too, so not an inexpensive process.

In Nikon and others who have chosen to go with IR triggers, let's not forget cost. A good set of radio triggers cost as much as a Nikon flash, with IR triggers that function very well - built right in for no extra cost. Different strokes for different folks. If you need professional level flash triggering, you have little choice but to purchase a separate wireless radio trigger system. But even then, it is far from perfect. IR can't shoot around corners, but try using radio triggers inside or around steel buildings if you want some fun and games....

Nothing short of an attached sync cord cuts down on the variables, and those are subject to being disconnected easily. Bottom line, there is no free lunch. You choose your tools that work for you in each situation and it is sure nice to have options to go all ways when you have a paying client demanding you get the shot. I never travel without a 20' sync cord as backup, whatever remote triggering set I chose to use.
Chuck Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2011   #33
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Re: Interesting rumor!

Your opinion Chuck, sure seems like there are a ton of radio systems popping up all over the place ... especially out of China and sold to US users.

I'd also hazard a guess that given the size of the new MicroSync, now with a 200' range with 16 channels it represents the type of technology that wouldn't be all that difficult to incorporate into a speed-light. That is what I mean by application of emerging technology for real world needs.

A Nikon SB900 is $500, the new MicroSync VM2T transmitter retails at $69. Hardly the cost of the speed-light. And it could simply be an optional model. Instead, you have to Gerry Rig senders and receivers.

BTW, I've personally never had any difficulty with radios on the industrial and factory shoots here in Detroit, like for American Axel and such. Can't get much more "steel" than that ... but that's not the point I was making ... very few weddings are photographed in a factory.

Personally, for a vast majority of the work I do, I'd rather have that than 10 more meg. But that's just me.

-Marc
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