Oops, looks like I set off an avalanche this morning. I know the lens is listed as available in 2 days on the Hasselblad EU website but I am hesitant to buy it direct. Partly because I appreciate my dealer's support and also because it is an expensive item and I prefer to deal with a human being when spending close to Eur5k. Hasselblad/DJI's approach seems very different from Leica's now. With Leica - own stores, staff who know me and who I know in person. Not wishing to be sentimental, but there is a sense of community - invitations to product launches, Academy workshops, priority access to back-ordered items, possibility to loan and test equipment before buying, getting mothership to fix S lenses with broken AF motors for free even past the 5-year extended warranty. They even sent an SL2 and lenses to a friend of mine to test, based on me vouching for him (he bought). Nobody's perfect but I appreciate the human element in all this. No matter how alluring the X2D and lenses may technically be, this makes me think which company I want to spend my money with.
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Growing concern over availability of XCD (older style) and New V lenses
- Thread starter Paul2660
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Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Leica customer service did the following for me:
+ Free replacement of AF motors on S lenses despite out of warranty and working ok (just wanted to upgrade in case of a re-sale)
+ Free replacement of M9 sensor although it was still ok and out of warranty, no questions asked
+ Free replacement lens packaging for SL lenses I wanted to sell online after I had thrown away mine (via my local store)
+ Special trade-in discount for SL as an M9 user when it came out giving an above market value to my M9 when getting into the SL system
+ Free sensor clean whenever I visit the Leica store + alongside coffee
+ Gallery and workshop invites
+ Free LCD protector when buying my M10M
+ Replacement of individual elements in M lenses at really reasonable cost - ie scratched front lens shade for like 400 EUR or so on my SX50M
That's a real value add and I feel if ever there would be a bigger problem like back in the day with the S optics and the M9 – Leica would make sure its fixed, no questions asked.
+ Free replacement of AF motors on S lenses despite out of warranty and working ok (just wanted to upgrade in case of a re-sale)
+ Free replacement of M9 sensor although it was still ok and out of warranty, no questions asked
+ Free replacement lens packaging for SL lenses I wanted to sell online after I had thrown away mine (via my local store)
+ Special trade-in discount for SL as an M9 user when it came out giving an above market value to my M9 when getting into the SL system
+ Free sensor clean whenever I visit the Leica store + alongside coffee
+ Gallery and workshop invites
+ Free LCD protector when buying my M10M
+ Replacement of individual elements in M lenses at really reasonable cost - ie scratched front lens shade for like 400 EUR or so on my SX50M
That's a real value add and I feel if ever there would be a bigger problem like back in the day with the S optics and the M9 – Leica would make sure its fixed, no questions asked.
Bill_Evans
Member
Paul, you seem to have a great deal of angst, for lack of a better word, about the Hasselblad & DJI camera brands. It’s pretty common that anyone who has pursued photography as a passion or a vocation has migrated through a number of camera systems. Some were good fits, some not, some were good well run companies others not so much. But mostly we, okay I, just moved on to find a system and brand that met our needs and allowed us to capture the images we needed for ouselves and our clients.
So I guess I’m puzzled why someone would spend so much energy raging against a camera system or brand that doesn’t work for them. Every camera is a comprise in one respect or another, but we live in an era with some amazing choices. Just seems like life is too short to worry about the ones that don’t work.
iiiNelson
Well-known member
Not trying to minimize, but could it be that the old model, while far more personal, wasn’t effective and efficient? Could it be that the old business model is a reason why Hasselblad was ultimately sold to DJI in the first place? I understand why smaller dealers would be upset and ideally distribution should be more fairly dispersed however I imagine the ability to sell directly is likely more profitable for a variety of reasons. I like dealers like CI and have purchased items from them in the past. The experience was great but for me it ultimately was an online sale on an item I already knew that I wanted because I don’t reside in their local area.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
I am just for calling a spade a spade and not romanticising what is happening in the background.
Hasselblad today is effectively DJI (the "Made in Sweden", "Man on the Moon" stuff is just marketing to sell at a premium at this stage) and they are going fully D2C meaning over time independent dealers will be cut out. (There's a moon pic in every Hassy corner in the drone shops BTW)
Imagine all people here having bought a digital back from DJI and are now fustrated about the tech cam lens issue. Who are you going to call if you bought it online?
Complain to the chat bot or drop an e-mail to the webshop's address? Good luck w/o dealers pushing for you.
With every online order you effectively needlessly take away the 15% or so margin your dealer could have had to support you in the future and put it into DJI's pockets which will re-invest it in the best case in even better chatbots, but that's it.
Its ok that this is the new reality, but it should be not minimized that quality USPs attached to the brand are watered down by it becoming a common retail camera manufacturer under the umbrella of DJI who is selling their products on a preferred basis online themselves and in drone shops in shopping malls besides the Levi's store and everyone should be clear about what they get for the very competitive price the products are sold for (looking through the at this stage super transparent and trite strategy to use the brand's heritage and design likeness as a front towards prosumers to drive sales) although the new DJI-Hasselblad mass produced photo gear has nothing to do with the workshop back in Sweden in the 60s that worked with Nasa to create for its time incredible and robust moon camera to withstand the harshest of conditions.
Marketing wise it has come down to banging the acquired heritage bell as loud as possible to then go on and inviting influencers over Youtube to produce launch videos and "reviews" to finally offer D2C 1-Day shipping. Done.
The man on the moon isn't going to reimburse you for your PDAF problem nor is he going to protect independent dealers. That's on the consumer. Growing concern like in the thread's title is right on point.
Hasselblad today is effectively DJI (the "Made in Sweden", "Man on the Moon" stuff is just marketing to sell at a premium at this stage) and they are going fully D2C meaning over time independent dealers will be cut out. (There's a moon pic in every Hassy corner in the drone shops BTW)
Imagine all people here having bought a digital back from DJI and are now fustrated about the tech cam lens issue. Who are you going to call if you bought it online?
Complain to the chat bot or drop an e-mail to the webshop's address? Good luck w/o dealers pushing for you.
With every online order you effectively needlessly take away the 15% or so margin your dealer could have had to support you in the future and put it into DJI's pockets which will re-invest it in the best case in even better chatbots, but that's it.
Its ok that this is the new reality, but it should be not minimized that quality USPs attached to the brand are watered down by it becoming a common retail camera manufacturer under the umbrella of DJI who is selling their products on a preferred basis online themselves and in drone shops in shopping malls besides the Levi's store and everyone should be clear about what they get for the very competitive price the products are sold for (looking through the at this stage super transparent and trite strategy to use the brand's heritage and design likeness as a front towards prosumers to drive sales) although the new DJI-Hasselblad mass produced photo gear has nothing to do with the workshop back in Sweden in the 60s that worked with Nasa to create for its time incredible and robust moon camera to withstand the harshest of conditions.
Marketing wise it has come down to banging the acquired heritage bell as loud as possible to then go on and inviting influencers over Youtube to produce launch videos and "reviews" to finally offer D2C 1-Day shipping. Done.
The man on the moon isn't going to reimburse you for your PDAF problem nor is he going to protect independent dealers. That's on the consumer. Growing concern like in the thread's title is right on point.
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iiiNelson
Well-known member
I’m guessing that Hasselblad will be selling far more cameras from the X series versus the tech cams which are a niche part of a niche. Again I’m not trying to minimize what DJI is doing but they’re probably doing what most companies that pay a large sum of money for a failing legacy brand do - turn a profit ASAP. There’s a balance for sure and I’m sure that it sucks for many smaller dealers.
The reality is just that far more companies will take the B&H/Amazon return policy model of being able to return items that aren’t working for you that could be sold as a “Like New/ Demo” for future potential customers. Yes it’s far more impersonal but few places stress the premium of customer service these days regardless of the benefits of it. I can see how this can feel troublesome but then perhaps this is where consumers have to work to be more informed… or DJI Hasselblad will simply fail again.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Fully agree that this is just how things go – my point is more about informed choice. Like you know what it is and you know what you get for it. Where it rubs me the wrong way is when brands change sth on the back-end while still collecting a "brand promise premium" so to say up front. Its classic profit engineering and very proven, it is a business practice seen with legacy brands all over. Sometimes the brand promise is kept, sometimes not.
It is very common business practice, but I feel in an advanced user forum people should be discerning and share the differentiated view of market mechanics which will ultimately affect the product experience.
Hasselblad in my mind always was this super premium brand standing for the highest grade gear withstanding all weather conditions and sold via professional dealers. You pay more, but you get the best possible camera. The H system back in the day was ahead of its time with Multi-Shot, True Focus, HNCS, etc. and HNCS to this day is amazing, with appointment only demos of its system. Buying an H camera was truly a financial commitment - but backed up by class-A human service and impeccable product quality.
But if basically in a sleight of hand kind of move the brand is kept but everything is slowly changed in the background you get into this situation where the brand owner can still collect the premium for the brand although classic trappings of that brand – like having a real human or professional dealer selling it to you, manual production in Sweden if you care about that, very fast repair no questions asked, etc. – are watered down. The beneficiary is ofc the brand who moved production to Asia and cuts out the dealers and diminishes support quality over time. Where it gets even more problematic, in my view, is if the "Made in Sweden" brand promise is used although in effect it is only final assembly and the only tie of a DJI owned Asian manufacturer to the heritage is for the sake of selling more at higher price than avg.
Very interesting point about Amazon / B&H – indeed it is a huge advantage to run the return policy model the big retailers can afford to do. I didn't think about that – but in a way it all comes down to capitalism and profit orientation favouring in the end all a common business model leading to similar approaches and products ultimately and also benefitting in a winner-take-it-all scenario the biggest players with the biggest pre-existing market power.
In that regard it is remarkable that Leica has been quite succesful in doing their "own thing" – they were quasi bankrupt before the release of the M9 – with premium stores all over the world with class-A customer service with very lenient customer policies in place.
Its just important to keep in mind what that DJI online order does to the future of the industry if it is not yet needed and consumers do have a choice, still.
It is very common business practice, but I feel in an advanced user forum people should be discerning and share the differentiated view of market mechanics which will ultimately affect the product experience.
Hasselblad in my mind always was this super premium brand standing for the highest grade gear withstanding all weather conditions and sold via professional dealers. You pay more, but you get the best possible camera. The H system back in the day was ahead of its time with Multi-Shot, True Focus, HNCS, etc. and HNCS to this day is amazing, with appointment only demos of its system. Buying an H camera was truly a financial commitment - but backed up by class-A human service and impeccable product quality.
But if basically in a sleight of hand kind of move the brand is kept but everything is slowly changed in the background you get into this situation where the brand owner can still collect the premium for the brand although classic trappings of that brand – like having a real human or professional dealer selling it to you, manual production in Sweden if you care about that, very fast repair no questions asked, etc. – are watered down. The beneficiary is ofc the brand who moved production to Asia and cuts out the dealers and diminishes support quality over time. Where it gets even more problematic, in my view, is if the "Made in Sweden" brand promise is used although in effect it is only final assembly and the only tie of a DJI owned Asian manufacturer to the heritage is for the sake of selling more at higher price than avg.
Very interesting point about Amazon / B&H – indeed it is a huge advantage to run the return policy model the big retailers can afford to do. I didn't think about that – but in a way it all comes down to capitalism and profit orientation favouring in the end all a common business model leading to similar approaches and products ultimately and also benefitting in a winner-take-it-all scenario the biggest players with the biggest pre-existing market power.
In that regard it is remarkable that Leica has been quite succesful in doing their "own thing" – they were quasi bankrupt before the release of the M9 – with premium stores all over the world with class-A customer service with very lenient customer policies in place.
Its just important to keep in mind what that DJI online order does to the future of the industry if it is not yet needed and consumers do have a choice, still.
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Godfrey
Well-known member
It's a matter of choice.
You can choose to worry about a company's way of doing business or you can choose to go with the flow, get the equipment you need however is required, and worry more about your photography.
I choose the latter. Over time, I've accumulated all the Hasselblad lenses and accessories I need/want; now I just have to worry about what kinds of photographs to make with them.
G
You can choose to worry about a company's way of doing business or you can choose to go with the flow, get the equipment you need however is required, and worry more about your photography.
I choose the latter. Over time, I've accumulated all the Hasselblad lenses and accessories I need/want; now I just have to worry about what kinds of photographs to make with them.
G
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Yes choice – on an informed basis. And being accountable.
Right now, "going with the flow" for those buying into the digital back for tech cam use have a useless product. That's what going with the flow got you on the digital back purchase from DJI. Let's hope they fix PDAF.
The forum's sponsor is a dealer depending on purchases with them. No dealer, no forum. It shouldn't be taken for granted, to be honest. Its not like some concerned DJI manager in Shenzen is going to step in if this forum is gone, transfer 5k USD for server costs to whoever runs this site, so some MF amateurs can continue to have a place to chat and upload pictures of their domestic pets. Reducing on the ground representation for the whole of North America – the largest photographic market in the world besides China – should tell you sth about where the shots are called nowadays.
Its not that easy. That head-in-the-sand-tactic.
Consumer action has real-world consequences and accountability for choices is an important thing, especially if there's no downside on one side (consumer), but a big one on the other (dealers).
There's nothing lost really when buying via independents vs. online so its the least one can do for new product releases.
Its not like there's a "MOON15" voucher on DJI online you can pull so there's a real reason beyond waiting a few more days to not go the D2C route. And let's be honest – its not like most here are on a Gucci assignment in Rome next week where time to get the camera shipped would be of the essence.
To shoot backyard flowers one can also wait two weeks.
Right now, "going with the flow" for those buying into the digital back for tech cam use have a useless product. That's what going with the flow got you on the digital back purchase from DJI. Let's hope they fix PDAF.
The forum's sponsor is a dealer depending on purchases with them. No dealer, no forum. It shouldn't be taken for granted, to be honest. Its not like some concerned DJI manager in Shenzen is going to step in if this forum is gone, transfer 5k USD for server costs to whoever runs this site, so some MF amateurs can continue to have a place to chat and upload pictures of their domestic pets. Reducing on the ground representation for the whole of North America – the largest photographic market in the world besides China – should tell you sth about where the shots are called nowadays.
Its not that easy. That head-in-the-sand-tactic.
Consumer action has real-world consequences and accountability for choices is an important thing, especially if there's no downside on one side (consumer), but a big one on the other (dealers).
There's nothing lost really when buying via independents vs. online so its the least one can do for new product releases.
Its not like there's a "MOON15" voucher on DJI online you can pull so there's a real reason beyond waiting a few more days to not go the D2C route. And let's be honest – its not like most here are on a Gucci assignment in Rome next week where time to get the camera shipped would be of the essence.
To shoot backyard flowers one can also wait two weeks.
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Bill_Evans
Member
Paul what kind of photography work do you do? Do you have a website? Do you consider yourself a “working” photographer or a ”backyard“ Imogen Cunningham type?
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
I stopped posting here, because I got a bit tired from spending time on the images thread and mostly shoot for myself; I am also very interested in the technical side so I enjoy discussing the market and lenses, photographic technique as well, of course. I only talk about lenses and gear I owned or own as I like to fully understand how things work and will buy a lens to understand how it fits into the bigger picture, etc.
I do shoot all kinds of photography, mostly humanscapes at the moment which requires more logistical overhead and planning and have shot across all systems in many different styles. I've been working on a large series where I've flown with an assistant across Southern Italy for example, I may publish sth in the next year, priorities permitting.
I've segregated photography wholly as a private endeavour as clearly in this day and age you cannot make money with it and to expose yourself to any commercial pressure regarding photography takes away all the joy.
This said, I've been shooting since mid 2000s from 8x10 to all digital systems and have large prints off of beautiful 8x10 negs handing at houses of friends.
I am busy setting up a new business so the self-assignment photography bit where I fly to places to get a series has taken a bit of a backseat.
But here's one I like I did with my Alpa TC IQ4A 43XL, for example.
I've posted in another thread a bit more samples about what I shoot - but a bit tired to dig it out ... also posted some stuff in the Leica thread recently.
Like this one for example with the fantastic S3– this is in Lecce, Puglia.
Most recently I am having a lot of fun with the M11 and SX24.
The 24mm focal length is a fantastic FoV to master – it requires mastery of the environment and then you have the nice way Summiluxes draw light which I am re-discovering. So rn mostly focused on the SX24 (since I got it a few weeks ago) and really, really pondering M11M + SX24 in the style of Shaller to focus on the essential.
On larger systems I pefer the 28mm equivalent area. Wide, but not too wide. Just perfect (the shot above is the S35 on the S3).
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Excellent. All I can say is keep posting.
It is regrettable that Hasselblad might appear to be favouring their direct sales and DJI stores over independent dealers with proper experience and expertise (and I agree that there is something a bit unseemly about selling this once quintessentially professional brand "next door to Levi's"
) but I fear Paul may be overstating his case. I have noticed that a few UK dealers have recently received new stock of XCD lenses – including the supposedly discontinued 21mm/F4 and the often out-of-stock 65mm/F2.8 – and it is possible, if you check some of the lesser known UK dealers, to still find the 38mm/F2.5 V in stock. The 55mm/F2.5 V is also fairly widely available. The 28P is nowhere to be seen, either on dealer shelves or online via DJI.
) but I fear Paul may be overstating his case. I have noticed that a few UK dealers have recently received new stock of XCD lenses – including the supposedly discontinued 21mm/F4 and the often out-of-stock 65mm/F2.8 – and it is possible, if you check some of the lesser known UK dealers, to still find the 38mm/F2.5 V in stock. The 55mm/F2.5 V is also fairly widely available. The 28P is nowhere to be seen, either on dealer shelves or online via DJI.Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Well the feefback I got from the dealer I spoke to is that especially when a new product launches it is a make-money or make-no-money situation if you have inventory. Let's say there is a new fantastic lens. Everyone wants it. If you only get 2 initially, but have a demand of 10 and the other 8 potential sales wander off to buy online or in D2C stores you basically lost money and the Hasselblad business is not the same anymore as in the past where the only way to get it in the neighbourhood was via your store.
Now DJI could come and say: we treat everyone else the same and if you pre-order and pre-pay you'll have 10 guaranteed at launch day ... which I think is sth they also do, but especially smaller independents are afraid of making financial commitments or even cannot prepay due to lack of liquidity in which case this is also an indirect way to favour the big stores.
B&H can come in and order 400 bodies most likely without blinking because they have the capital or credit to do so – a smaller professional dealer just can't or isn't wiling to be in debt for something that's not a 100% sell within X days.
Once the dust has settled and the initial demand wave is over it doesn't sting as much anymore to be disadvantaged with delivery times, but still, if something is available online and not at your place within a similarly short period you'll likely lose the sale.
Here in Switzerland I've noticed that some camera manufacturers do this totally differently. When the Nikon Z9 came out, the only way to get it was directly via a pro dealer although there are many other outlets selling a Z9 online. Only after many months these started to get stock (I am not talking about parallel imports). Also the Z9 at the pro store costs list without discount, while the online outlets who'd get it down the line would offer Z9s a few hundred bucks below list. By the time the online outlets were selling Z9s, most likely a majority of the pent-up demand for the new Nikon body was "processed" by the market so everyone was happy and the pro store sold his 50 units.
So its a timing thing as well and how much of the initial sales down wave of product is sold in the beginning.
Essentially: As a store you care how many Fuji TSE30 lenses you get in stock as every single one received is money in the bank as you can sell through directly. Whether any other Fuji lens is here within a day or two doesn't make a difference anymore years down the line post product launch.
In two years you won't care so much anymore if the Fuji TSE30 is in your store within two days as initial demand tapers and the market is saturated.
It how you get inventory in the first months what decides how much money you make.
Now DJI could come and say: we treat everyone else the same and if you pre-order and pre-pay you'll have 10 guaranteed at launch day ... which I think is sth they also do, but especially smaller independents are afraid of making financial commitments or even cannot prepay due to lack of liquidity in which case this is also an indirect way to favour the big stores.
B&H can come in and order 400 bodies most likely without blinking because they have the capital or credit to do so – a smaller professional dealer just can't or isn't wiling to be in debt for something that's not a 100% sell within X days.
Once the dust has settled and the initial demand wave is over it doesn't sting as much anymore to be disadvantaged with delivery times, but still, if something is available online and not at your place within a similarly short period you'll likely lose the sale.
Here in Switzerland I've noticed that some camera manufacturers do this totally differently. When the Nikon Z9 came out, the only way to get it was directly via a pro dealer although there are many other outlets selling a Z9 online. Only after many months these started to get stock (I am not talking about parallel imports). Also the Z9 at the pro store costs list without discount, while the online outlets who'd get it down the line would offer Z9s a few hundred bucks below list. By the time the online outlets were selling Z9s, most likely a majority of the pent-up demand for the new Nikon body was "processed" by the market so everyone was happy and the pro store sold his 50 units.
So its a timing thing as well and how much of the initial sales down wave of product is sold in the beginning.
Essentially: As a store you care how many Fuji TSE30 lenses you get in stock as every single one received is money in the bank as you can sell through directly. Whether any other Fuji lens is here within a day or two doesn't make a difference anymore years down the line post product launch.
In two years you won't care so much anymore if the Fuji TSE30 is in your store within two days as initial demand tapers and the market is saturated.
It how you get inventory in the first months what decides how much money you make.
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Godfrey
Well-known member
I didn't not buy my 907x/CFVII 50c because I wanted a technical camera. I suspect that the vast majority of purchasers of this equipment are more like me than the vanishingly small niche of technical camera users. I bought it because:
- the CFVII 50c extends the use of my Hasselblad 500CM and lenses into the digital photography world.
- the 907x body allows me use of Hasselblad X series lenses with all the nice conveniences of autofocus, auto exposure, et cetera, when such things are useful to me.
- The CFV 100c back does the same.
If all you want to do is whine about how DJI/Hasselblad are screwing up compared to what you expect them to be doing, well, fine. They seem to be running their business on a profitable footing, which is likely their goal since that's why they're in business...
Whine away. I'll just block you so I don''t have to listen to the whining. I enjoy my Hasselblad system immensely and see no point to the persistent whining by a tiny fraction of the user community.
G
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Well this is not the Hasselblad user forum, but more focused on tech cam use which is why the PDAF issue came up and was discovered in the first place. No one said its not cool to attach the new back to a V camera and good for you if you are happy.
But no one cares about the your individual purchase reasons in a thread where new lens availability problems are being discussed. You yourself brought your preferences into play as if they mattered one bit regarding availability of lenses as raised by the thread poster. The market is changing very dynamically and this is why the initial thread poster started a discussion as he was questioning his choice of system amid supply issues.
On PDAF: Here the point was that an incompatibility with tech cam lenses was identified by forum members purchasing the back after specific advertising relating to that very use case and this is a problem which is unclear whether it will be resolved. Clearly, this is not something people will complain about in a pure V user context.
But this thread is about something else - its about DJIs new focus on D2C and availability of product issues as identified by the initial poster.
No problem there's nothing lost in not seeing your commentary.
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This is very sad.The last thing I want is unhappiness. A steer hawker selling street food in India will carry on with his daily business,but one his practice causes any damage to his pocket, he will sit down and review his practice and bring about some changes. All major businesses continue on that principle of reviewing following hit in their pockets.Until that happenes they will carry on with their current practices.
I have seen world governments go back on their (mostly) domestic socio,education and economic policies once they see and feet public oppsition.
So lets carry on with our passion for photography.
I have seen world governments go back on their (mostly) domestic socio,education and economic policies once they see and feet public oppsition.
So lets carry on with our passion for photography.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Agree - not here to argue for the sake of it. But I'd find it sad if independent dealers need to close shop because they are being squeezed out by larger enterprises. I've been buying from the same few places since the mid 2000s and will continue to do so for new product (not used as this is scenario specific) precisely to keep them in business even it takes longer to get the products or if it costs 100 bucks more.
In the end we are all here for the love of photography and the technical aspects relating to it (at least that's how I initially perceived the "DPI" in getDPI – the place were digital backs are discussed which achieve highest DPI ...
)
In the end we are all here for the love of photography and the technical aspects relating to it (at least that's how I initially perceived the "DPI" in getDPI – the place were digital backs are discussed which achieve highest DPI ...
)
Godfrey
Well-known member
OH, my mistake. I thought "Medium Format Systems and Digital Backs" included Hasselblad medium format cameras and digital systems.
Hmm... There is no other forum for "Hasselblad Users" or specific to "Technical Camera Users" on this website that I can find.
I also don't see a forum dedicated to "Discussions of Camera Equipment Providers' Business Models" either.
G
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