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Is Hasselblad still really a premium brand?
- Thread starter iczek
- Start date
Played around with the X2DII and 35-100 in the HB boutique in London today.
not sure it matters how you refer to the brand, as a long time H4D/35-90mm and X1D user I was quite impressed. The color scheme looks great in person, grip and joystick felt great, zoom on lens felt great. It was quick and speedy with good subject detect af, definitely good enough for my needs.
YMMV but I was impressed….esp at a reduced price with added benefits for both the body and lens over the X2D/35-75.
not sure it matters how you refer to the brand, as a long time H4D/35-90mm and X1D user I was quite impressed. The color scheme looks great in person, grip and joystick felt great, zoom on lens felt great. It was quick and speedy with good subject detect af, definitely good enough for my needs.
YMMV but I was impressed….esp at a reduced price with added benefits for both the body and lens over the X2D/35-75.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
X2Ds seem to have hit just 4k USD which is brutal.
Also lots of SL3s coming to market. Leica is in trouble, this is strong competition ... MF look, more megapixels for 4k USD is insane.
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Precision
Active member
Funny - I bought my first **NEW** camera body in 40 years not too long ago - and it was a Hasselblad.
I am an unrepentant used camera user - the premium (there's that word again!) for that new camera smell is always high. Recent and often little used pre-owned kit can almost always be had for a fraction of the new price (as with most things). Very seldom is there something that is so game changing that I'll pony up for the new hotness...I am much more likely to seek out the undervalued things in the used world (Hence my love for most things Sinar).
Back in the olden days, my first Hasselblad kit - 500 C/M with a 80mm C lens and an A-12 back and WLF - was courtesy of a Dentist who had to have the new hotness Minolta Maxxum 7000. I took that 'blad on trade and bought it from the camera store I worked at at my employee price (10% over cost). IIRC it was like $300 in 1986 dollars for body and lens.
But when the CFV-100C came available, I was pounding Hendrix via e-mail, shouting "TAKE MY MONEY!!" I didn't regret it - still don't, it's a wonderful tool either with native glass or hanging off of my view camera,.
When the CFV-100ii ships (hopefully with ability to be mounted in portrait orientation on a V body, and some of the coolness on the X2Dii (Lidar, multi shot, IBIS OH MY!) well, I guess I will take a beating if I chose to unload this one. (I probably won't - I still OWN the previous NEW camera I bought in 1986 - My well brassed Olympus OM-4) - but I will have gotten my moneys worth for it either way.
All this to say - focus on resale value is just a data point. The industry turns out new stuff all the time, and a certain set of users sell off their old stuff to get the new stuff. Other kinds of users don't mind the older stuff if the value is there. The recent slump in Phase One XF value allowed me to upgrade my backup body from my olde DF+ to a second XF - clearing one of the reasons I am resistant to the charms of the IQ4 (now, about that zero latency thing...) At the asking price for a new XF - forget it - no way. But a recently serviced, HAP-2 upgraded example, complete with all the original accountremont for just a hair over $2K? Mkay! IT may lose a bit more value, end up down at the price the DF trades for - but if I don't care about selling it anyway, who cares? The X2D is just as good a camera as it was the day it shipped, maybe better because of new firmware. My OM-4 is as good as it ever was. So is my Sinar P2.
With very few exceptions, If you are "investing" in camera gear at whatever the current retail value is, you're gonna get hurt. Buy what you need to do your thing. iF only the new hotness can do your thing, well, buy that.
I am an unrepentant used camera user - the premium (there's that word again!) for that new camera smell is always high. Recent and often little used pre-owned kit can almost always be had for a fraction of the new price (as with most things). Very seldom is there something that is so game changing that I'll pony up for the new hotness...I am much more likely to seek out the undervalued things in the used world (Hence my love for most things Sinar).
Back in the olden days, my first Hasselblad kit - 500 C/M with a 80mm C lens and an A-12 back and WLF - was courtesy of a Dentist who had to have the new hotness Minolta Maxxum 7000. I took that 'blad on trade and bought it from the camera store I worked at at my employee price (10% over cost). IIRC it was like $300 in 1986 dollars for body and lens.
But when the CFV-100C came available, I was pounding Hendrix via e-mail, shouting "TAKE MY MONEY!!" I didn't regret it - still don't, it's a wonderful tool either with native glass or hanging off of my view camera,.
When the CFV-100ii ships (hopefully with ability to be mounted in portrait orientation on a V body, and some of the coolness on the X2Dii (Lidar, multi shot, IBIS OH MY!) well, I guess I will take a beating if I chose to unload this one. (I probably won't - I still OWN the previous NEW camera I bought in 1986 - My well brassed Olympus OM-4) - but I will have gotten my moneys worth for it either way.
All this to say - focus on resale value is just a data point. The industry turns out new stuff all the time, and a certain set of users sell off their old stuff to get the new stuff. Other kinds of users don't mind the older stuff if the value is there. The recent slump in Phase One XF value allowed me to upgrade my backup body from my olde DF+ to a second XF - clearing one of the reasons I am resistant to the charms of the IQ4 (now, about that zero latency thing...) At the asking price for a new XF - forget it - no way. But a recently serviced, HAP-2 upgraded example, complete with all the original accountremont for just a hair over $2K? Mkay! IT may lose a bit more value, end up down at the price the DF trades for - but if I don't care about selling it anyway, who cares? The X2D is just as good a camera as it was the day it shipped, maybe better because of new firmware. My OM-4 is as good as it ever was. So is my Sinar P2.
With very few exceptions, If you are "investing" in camera gear at whatever the current retail value is, you're gonna get hurt. Buy what you need to do your thing. iF only the new hotness can do your thing, well, buy that.
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Technology moves too fast these days. Anyone looking at a digital camera as a financial investment - unless it’s generating revenue that is self-sustaining - you’re going to have a bad time.
Brutal?
That’s a great thing for anyone that wants 100mp without spending 7k plus. I lost $6k between when I my OG X1D new from when I sold it. The delta between $4k for a used X2D v new X2D is significantly less than the hit many of us took on the OG X1D. I don’t complain because I used my X1D extensively and made sure I got what I needed out of it.
Used Fuji GFX100s have been at that price point or lower for a long time.
None of this is anything new. Even 10 years ago I’d advise anyone getting into dSLRS “buy used and put money into lenses”
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
I don't know looks like more than 50% in 3y; 8.2k -> 4k. That's quite a drop in a short time - and I think a good deal!
Fuji's are priced in the 6k region, no? So 6k -> 4k is less of a drop. I am not going to spend time researching the exact release date prices or ebay going rates as I really don't track Fuji stuff, but it seems to me that the depreciation of the X2D is quite drastic, even compared to Fuji based on what you say if Fuji is still at 4k.
Would be interesting to see a plot over time of how well each brand retains value over time. One would need to compare like-for-like, meaning 3y drop vs. 3y drop per brand as release cycles vary between systems.
I suspect the X2D to X2D MK II drop is on the stronger side of drops, driven also by the lower launch price of course and DJI's apparent high supply of cameras.
IMHO SL3 will be the biggest loser of the new X2D MK II - its quite tough for Leica if Hassy has same price point given one is MF with not so bad AF now ...
Fuji's are priced in the 6k region, no? So 6k -> 4k is less of a drop. I am not going to spend time researching the exact release date prices or ebay going rates as I really don't track Fuji stuff, but it seems to me that the depreciation of the X2D is quite drastic, even compared to Fuji based on what you say if Fuji is still at 4k.
Would be interesting to see a plot over time of how well each brand retains value over time. One would need to compare like-for-like, meaning 3y drop vs. 3y drop per brand as release cycles vary between systems.
I suspect the X2D to X2D MK II drop is on the stronger side of drops, driven also by the lower launch price of course and DJI's apparent high supply of cameras.
IMHO SL3 will be the biggest loser of the new X2D MK II - its quite tough for Leica if Hassy has same price point given one is MF with not so bad AF now ...
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The price and AF were never the only reasons why one bought SL3 or X2D. SL3 is nimbler and has more zooms available, as well as some expensive, fabulous lenses, and it works better with M lenses. It has LPC, and the EVF/LCD interaction is better than with X2D. The benefits of X2D II are known in this forum.
I read more about people dumping their GFX to switch to X2D II than dumping their SL3.
Sorry I was being cheeky after a martini or two, yes brutal by the numbers but as someone who did not buy an X2D and needs another landscapes camera in the near future, I’m quite happy to see $4k X2Ds
agree on the SL3, generally my experience with Leica and Leica owners is that those that go after the SL3 and other Leica systems do so for the intangibles, the brand association, or anything other than the numbers.
My brother lent me his MP240 and 50 1.2 and 18 3.8 for my UK trip and I’ve been having a lot of fun with it….especially since I didn’t have to put any money towards it
I don’t know what the menu system on the GFX system is like, but the menu system of my X-T4 makes me want to throw it off a bridge sometimes despite the very favorable image quality : price point ratio. With the pricing of the X2DII/35-100 closing the gap on the Fuji equivalent from a price perspective, if we assume all else being equal, I don’t blame them based on my experience with Fuji. That said - the GF lens lineup definitely has some lenses I wish HB had (see the 110 T/S, for example, and 100-200), and Fuji scores points there. Not everyone needs those lenses though.
nothing wrong with the GFX at all, the Fuji user experience isn’t for me though.
I’ve had just about every modern digital system there is out there except for canon and the Leica SL (Sony/nikon/fuji/pentax/leica/hasselblad/P1), and the HB X user interface I think they nailed out of the gate even from the OG X1D and is the best out there. Of course it’s all a matter of personal taste there though.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
I agree that it is a bit different with the M glass adaptability. It is fantastic with it. I had an SL2 for many years and still kept the M glass mostly.
When looking through my C1 catalogue, I cannot help though to immediately see the smaller sensor look ... and then there's 3:2 ... but I loved using the SL2 with fhe Apo Summicron M lenses ... really small and excellent IQ.
The M 50mm f2 apo is calling my name some day for sure. I really love the look and experience of just about M lens I’ve shot with.
Interesting point... do you consider it as a problem on the S3 (which I think you use) ? And do you see some bigger sensor look on the S3 compared to the SL3 ?
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Well it annoys me on the S3 a little so I will often crop to 4x5; but the look of the S files is completely different and I get the best colours out of it across all my systems. I love the S3 files - they’re unique in my experience as it is a custom chip as well ie not Sony which always has a tiny bit of a magenta cast on the M11 which I also had for a year.
First off the S lenses are the most perfect system lenses I have seen and so in combination with the big chip they render absolutely gorgeously. Images have a pop and micro contrast that’s just a notch above the 35mm stuff and yes the 35 2.5 on a bigger chip allows for a more plastic rendering of say portraits.
I have the APO SL lenses as well and they are almost too clinical and the Summiluxes although amazing in the way they capture especially situations with a lot of light - there’s a nice glow with them - you can tell it’s not the same level sharpness and micro contrast wide open that you can get from S glass.
The APO SL glass is so perfect that it almost can look like an iPhone image sometimes as F2 and the smaller chip and lack of vignetting and aberrations makes the images look almost sterile.
I primarily used the SL2 with Leica M glass where I enjoyed the manual focusing implementation.
First off the S lenses are the most perfect system lenses I have seen and so in combination with the big chip they render absolutely gorgeously. Images have a pop and micro contrast that’s just a notch above the 35mm stuff and yes the 35 2.5 on a bigger chip allows for a more plastic rendering of say portraits.
I have the APO SL lenses as well and they are almost too clinical and the Summiluxes although amazing in the way they capture especially situations with a lot of light - there’s a nice glow with them - you can tell it’s not the same level sharpness and micro contrast wide open that you can get from S glass.
The APO SL glass is so perfect that it almost can look like an iPhone image sometimes as F2 and the smaller chip and lack of vignetting and aberrations makes the images look almost sterile.
I primarily used the SL2 with Leica M glass where I enjoyed the manual focusing implementation.
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bab
Active member
Never has camera gear been an investment so to speak the Proof with all manufactures is apparent but the winner would be the Pyramid System used by Phase One to lease or finance photographers a multi teired host of gear with enormous mark up and setting up specialized dealers closing the deal with the pitch that you can trade in your old gear which will have a high residual value for newer gear making the whole process affordable. you see where that road took you.
The x2d was announced in September of 22 for 8199.00 and is now three years old by my calculations that's about 116.00 a month not bad for three years of use. The caveat is that consumers of that system had to pay a stiff learning fee when the entire lens system changed. True the older lenses are still working but not like the newer glass. On another note giving away 100 cameras and lenses at an assumed cost of 500k to u tubers is cheap advertising considering how targeted the ad campaign is a genius move on hasselblad part as I see it.
Since the advent of digital, camera manufacturers have been laughing all the way to the bank. Countless film photographers would use systems that were 10-50 or more years old with no problem. Then came digital with high-enough resolution to be on a par with film and clients expecting instant delivery complete with retouching. And countless photographers then unloaded their film gear only to be caught up on the endless upgrade merry-go-round, reaching for that state-of-the-art brass ring.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Back in the P45 days, the P1 systems were significantly ahead and depreciation could be offset in a business context against business profits making P1 pricing a good system as long as professional photography still paid well. Now I would assume the main audience are prosumers and here you are just in a lot smaller niche at the ultra high price point if people can’t offset depreciation
I would think the P1 customer is still the working pro and art photographers. 100% tax depreciation in the first year is still is a factor for those fields in the U.S. at least for now, including if the business has a net loss for the year, which can be carried over. Caveat: I am not a CPA or tax accountant. If this is your situation, consult an expert in the field, not a forum.
TechTalk
Well-known member
Since the advent of digital, many camera manufacturers have been crying all the way to bankruptcy and hanging going out of business signs.