Bill Caulfeild-Browne
Well-known member
Hello Dante!
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phase one XC…
- Thread starter m21apsh
- Start date
Maxx9photo
Active member
XT is already small enough compared to WRS 1600, one of the reason I opted this instead wrs 1600 or even 1200.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Well it certainly isn't just a standard video. They make it clear something is coming in the form of a new product, at least this is how I interpret the messaging ...
To me the big news is this: P1 is alive and IQ5 seems a lot more realistic now ...
To me the big news is this: P1 is alive and IQ5 seems a lot more realistic now ...
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Agree that “bespoke”’ is … cringe. They dropped their “retired executive” trying to find their “inner artist” marketing campaign it seems, thankfully.
The guy in the video is a Swiss photographer and also an Ambassador for Alpa - he shoots mountain scapes … the 23 HR is perfect for this
Price prediction for XC body 4500-5000 EUR. Still robbery for what it is, but then again this is "bespoke" stuff ...
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Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
I am sorry, but this is incredibly disappointing. Fixed lens?!
Management should act and fire product management. They have no idea what they are doing. Are they in touch with the marketplace, at all?
High-end photo hardware is cutthroat and P1 is under pressure from Hassy and Fuji – now is the time to lean in, work with the community and make a killer offering that EVERYONE wants and not just push a "nice idea from a strategy session" onto the market without extensive pre-vetting of the feature set. C'mon. And stay mum all the way before dropping something randomly. Killing off modularity when each lens costs 10k+? So everyone else that invested in XT glass is stuck with the XT body although a compact body would have been welcome and easy to pull off?
Look at companies like Red or Blackmagic - they listen and try to surpass the expectations of their communities; here we have a severe case of "Ivory Tower" product management. 0 comms and randomly pushing flawed products onto the market based on their own taste and some notion of what might be cool ("SWC").
The system design blunders keep on piling up:
+ No auto LCC as suggested in the beginning
+ No large XT to benefit from the IC of 50mm and above lenses
+ Tilt is only 3 degrees, uni-directional (ie no swing because of the Cambo mount)
+ Tilt is not available in other lenses as retro upgrade
+ Lenses are overpriced as is the whole system
+ XC is a complete let-down by not being compatible with the other X lenses; if you spent 10k+ on a 23 X shutter you basically lost; I have almost all X lenses and would have loved a compact body to go along; but NOT a FIXED LENS SYSTEM in the price bracket above 10k
+ It doesn't have a tripod mount on the side, so you need either get a bulky L-bracket or a big tripod head to shoot vertically
+ 0 communication and sounding with the community; some polling would have most certainly fed back that modularity is a big thing to kill off
While the idea of a compact camera system with 150 megapixel resolution is nice ("The SWC / Q principle"), you cannot make it not modular. I own the 23 X shutter and cannot use it with this system as I am forced to buy the body + lens. You can bet this is going to be expensive.
This is not how you keep the business alive in a recessionary environment. Also the "Leica Q" concept doesn't fly as soon as you get to these price levels.
it is one thing to buy a 6k "disposable tech" cam, another thing to break the modularity paradigm and punish people who bought the 23 X shutter lens and release a what - 15-20k disposable lens cam.
Very disappointed. Not going to buy this – also you might not want to use a 23 X lens always, but maybe a 40, 50mm lens sometimes. – so what were they thinking?
Alpa's TC is a way better solution here and it is more compact. With the small TC grip it is argubaly even more portable and you can use all lenses, including legacy Schneider glass and x shutter glass.
With C1 presets correcting for vignetting and distortion at 0/0 position the TC, even if the XC has some firmware related auto correction tricks, is essentially as easy workflow-wise as this offering.
Also it seems like they didn't grasp the opportunity to offer tilt in the XC which would have been nice for a pure play landscape cam.
What is product management thinking ... seriously. Not sure this is exactly what is needed to turn sales around in this economic environment.
This product is going to tank big time. Happy to be quoted if this is the hot pancake of the photo world in the coming months.
Even Dante doesn't want you to burn money completely stupidly.
Management should act and fire product management. They have no idea what they are doing. Are they in touch with the marketplace, at all?
High-end photo hardware is cutthroat and P1 is under pressure from Hassy and Fuji – now is the time to lean in, work with the community and make a killer offering that EVERYONE wants and not just push a "nice idea from a strategy session" onto the market without extensive pre-vetting of the feature set. C'mon. And stay mum all the way before dropping something randomly. Killing off modularity when each lens costs 10k+? So everyone else that invested in XT glass is stuck with the XT body although a compact body would have been welcome and easy to pull off?
Look at companies like Red or Blackmagic - they listen and try to surpass the expectations of their communities; here we have a severe case of "Ivory Tower" product management. 0 comms and randomly pushing flawed products onto the market based on their own taste and some notion of what might be cool ("SWC").
The system design blunders keep on piling up:
+ No auto LCC as suggested in the beginning
+ No large XT to benefit from the IC of 50mm and above lenses
+ Tilt is only 3 degrees, uni-directional (ie no swing because of the Cambo mount)
+ Tilt is not available in other lenses as retro upgrade
+ Lenses are overpriced as is the whole system
+ XC is a complete let-down by not being compatible with the other X lenses; if you spent 10k+ on a 23 X shutter you basically lost; I have almost all X lenses and would have loved a compact body to go along; but NOT a FIXED LENS SYSTEM in the price bracket above 10k
+ It doesn't have a tripod mount on the side, so you need either get a bulky L-bracket or a big tripod head to shoot vertically
+ 0 communication and sounding with the community; some polling would have most certainly fed back that modularity is a big thing to kill off
While the idea of a compact camera system with 150 megapixel resolution is nice ("The SWC / Q principle"), you cannot make it not modular. I own the 23 X shutter and cannot use it with this system as I am forced to buy the body + lens. You can bet this is going to be expensive.
This is not how you keep the business alive in a recessionary environment. Also the "Leica Q" concept doesn't fly as soon as you get to these price levels.
it is one thing to buy a 6k "disposable tech" cam, another thing to break the modularity paradigm and punish people who bought the 23 X shutter lens and release a what - 15-20k disposable lens cam.
Very disappointed. Not going to buy this – also you might not want to use a 23 X lens always, but maybe a 40, 50mm lens sometimes. – so what were they thinking?
Alpa's TC is a way better solution here and it is more compact. With the small TC grip it is argubaly even more portable and you can use all lenses, including legacy Schneider glass and x shutter glass.
With C1 presets correcting for vignetting and distortion at 0/0 position the TC, even if the XC has some firmware related auto correction tricks, is essentially as easy workflow-wise as this offering.
Also it seems like they didn't grasp the opportunity to offer tilt in the XC which would have been nice for a pure play landscape cam.
What is product management thinking ... seriously. Not sure this is exactly what is needed to turn sales around in this economic environment.
This product is going to tank big time. Happy to be quoted if this is the hot pancake of the photo world in the coming months.
Even Dante doesn't want you to burn money completely stupidly.
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Maxx9photo
Active member
From PETA
petapixel.com
The Phase One XC is a $62,490 Fixed-Lens, Medium Format Travel Camera
An all-in-one digital medium format camera designed to be the ultimate travel companion.
petapixel.com
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Is this a fully integrated offering only available with the back? If so, it is worse than thought. Lol. Can anyone confirm?!
I mean in a world where photographers are struggling to justify the cost of a P1 system on a RoI and also on an IQ level given rising competition – they think it is a good idea to come out of the woodwork after a year of silence to drop a niche of a niche 60k integrated luxury camera? Based on a lens design that's soon two decades old?
I am sorry, I'd fire product management at this stage – it is not that the market is bad, the whole management of the products is so beside the marketplace it is just sad and astonishing.
I wouldn't say Hasselblad Lunar level, but at 60k this is not going to sell after the first order batch from luxury customers in Asia and the Middle East have been fulfilled.
I mean is this what you bring to market when you are loss-making, people are selling off their backs at 35% of MSRP and emergent alternatives challenge your whole product category?
This should have been: 5k USD body + new firmware and a statement by P1 that they are working on producing the next gen of backs or so ...
This is a misconceived luxury toy that won't sell.
The main allure at this stage will be rarity value in a few years once they discontinue it and you see one of these on ebay.
I mean in a world where photographers are struggling to justify the cost of a P1 system on a RoI and also on an IQ level given rising competition – they think it is a good idea to come out of the woodwork after a year of silence to drop a niche of a niche 60k integrated luxury camera? Based on a lens design that's soon two decades old?
I am sorry, I'd fire product management at this stage – it is not that the market is bad, the whole management of the products is so beside the marketplace it is just sad and astonishing.
I wouldn't say Hasselblad Lunar level, but at 60k this is not going to sell after the first order batch from luxury customers in Asia and the Middle East have been fulfilled.
I mean is this what you bring to market when you are loss-making, people are selling off their backs at 35% of MSRP and emergent alternatives challenge your whole product category?
This should have been: 5k USD body + new firmware and a statement by P1 that they are working on producing the next gen of backs or so ...
This is a misconceived luxury toy that won't sell.
The main allure at this stage will be rarity value in a few years once they discontinue it and you see one of these on ebay.
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Bill Caulfeild-Browne
Well-known member
I'm amazed. No interchangeable lens, no tilt, no shift? Having an XT, why would I buy this?
Dante is really going to be p----d off!
Only my bank account is happy.
Dante is really going to be p----d off!
Only my bank account is happy.
Bill Caulfeild-Browne
Well-known member
Or even a small zoom.....
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Precisely – who's the target audience? The rich kid kin Dubai being driven via a chaffeur to school wanting a nice camera for the trip to Ibiza? That's ok, but then you sell 50 units per year. You cannot make up for the market lost to Hassy X with this.
If you are in business and want to be successful with a product you have to strive to exceed everyone's expectations constantly. This business is Private Equity owned and loss-making. How on earth is no one taking action on the mismanaged photo unit?
60k fixed lens makes 0 sense – this is why product management needs to be fired and replaced by someone who understands how to create a product that sells for P1's remaining audience ... that is decreasing ...
Bill Caulfeild-Browne
Well-known member
I can't see what it weighs - is it much lighter than the XT/23mm?
kdphotography
Well-known member
I understand the premise of the XT camera body, presumably to make it "easier" for photographers new to Phase One and new to technical cameras to make the transition. The only thing I like about the XT over the Cambo WRS1600 is the slightly smaller form factor, with the biggest plus being a half pound lighter than the WRS1600. But other than that, the XT isn't a big attraction for me. Over past few years, it seems like Phase One has become increasingly out of touch with "photographers," perhaps with Phase having their heads still in Covid quarantine?
And now with the XC? Really? This is supposed to be a "companion" camera (per the Peta article)?? Sorry, but I see a better companion camera as that being offered by Fuji and Leica to complement or supplement my WRS1600 as a better choice. I'd pick up an Alpa TC if I wanted "smaller."
Phase One really misses the boat with its XC offering.
Is this really what the world's best photography is made of?
And now with the XC? Really? This is supposed to be a "companion" camera (per the Peta article)?? Sorry, but I see a better companion camera as that being offered by Fuji and Leica to complement or supplement my WRS1600 as a better choice. I'd pick up an Alpa TC if I wanted "smaller."
Phase One really misses the boat with its XC offering. Is this really what the world's best photography is made of?
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Let's be honest – the VP in charge has no idea what he's doing. P1 in the beginning even played dirty by keeping the x shutter to themselves while Alpa for example had to wait two years or more to get it. That's one of the reasons they initially sold the XT and not because it is such a brilliant product per se.
That's the problem in corporates if there's no strong leadership in place that is driven by excellence with a deep wish to exceed expectations on the product level. Like this owner- and product-mindset that Elon Musk has. In good companies you do not see such egregious product market fit mistakes seeing the light of the day.
A mediocre corporate product manager can ruin a whole division's fortune.
Agree – this is a far cry from the excellence expected from P1.
That's the problem in corporates if there's no strong leadership in place that is driven by excellence with a deep wish to exceed expectations on the product level. Like this owner- and product-mindset that Elon Musk has. In good companies you do not see such egregious product market fit mistakes seeing the light of the day.
A mediocre corporate product manager can ruin a whole division's fortune.
Agree – this is a far cry from the excellence expected from P1.
Dante Alighieri
Member
Those are almost fighting words----but yes, even Dante doesn't encourage burning money stupidly. It's always an investment.
Dante's advice for those so inclined: skip the XC and purchase the Rodenstock HR138 instead. See, https://www.getdpi.com/forum/index.php?threads/rodenstock-138mm-hr-digaron-float-beauty-shots.73799/