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Sony a7V innovation reaches DR of MF cameras

SrMphoto

Well-known member
Sony has launched the a7V model with an apparently interesting solution to increase the dynamic range. Instead of using a standard dual-conversion gain sensor, which helps mostly at high ISOs, after closing the second shutter, the camera reads the sensors twice at two different gains. Combined readout increases max DR by 1.5 stops, bringing it to the DR of MF sensors.

Since the method requires a mechanical shutter, the DR with an electronic shutter is lower, as with regular FF sensors.

There is no official documentation. What I wrote above is what I gleaned from posts on DPR and Bill Claff's measurements.

I think that is a brilliant way to increase DR and should be implementable in MF cameras as well, as long as they use mechanical shutters.


P.S.: Panasonic S1II also has something similar (DGO), but it is a bit less efficient than a7V.
 
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iiiNelson

Well-known member
While I think it’s a “nice trick” to be able to perform, my belief is that the next big development for 35mm sensors are to start incorporating 16-bit color while maintaining faster readout speeds.

Similarly, I believe the next big development for cropped MF sensors are to incorporate faster readout sensors (whether that continue with rolling shutter or develop global shutters that can maintain 16-bit color.)

in the end tech isn’t generally the limiting factor. Just preferences of workflow.
 

SrMphoto

Well-known member
This should be old news for many.

The 16 bit color advantage is a myth. Nobody can show the difference between 16 bit and 14 bit colors. The bit size is mainly about dynamic range, not color, and 14 bits are plenty in that regards for cropMF and FF sensors.
Even in IQ150, I see a 16 bit advantage only with frame averaging.

While the max PDR of a7V is close to that of cropMF sensors, this does not tell us everything about IQ. And then, there is the reaolution advantage of MF sensors.
 

miriquidi

Member
It's progress if one takes pictures in a way, you typically do with medium format systems. No unplanned real action, no massive bursts, rely on the not so fast mechanical shutter with noticeable acoustic noise and so on. So it's made for landscape, real estate or just "scripted" images. Fine, if you do this.
The downside of that partially stacked sensor is, that it lacks on the action side of photography. (That's what the AF-system is made for.) The sensor readout time is a medicore 1/60 s, which is about the same speed the E-M1 II reached 9 years ago.
So if the mechanical shutter is necessary in cases of fast action (where you easily get through 5k images in a few hours), why not take a Nikon Z7 or Canon R5 with about the same quality but better resolution? Sonys AF-system is better, yes. But IQ-wise, I think the A7V is far too expensive for what it is.


What I'm not so sure about is the influence of RAW noise reduction. Canons R3 has noise reduction backed in their RAWs and does very good at dynamic range tests. (And too is better in mechanical mode than in electronic read mode.) What is Sony doing there? I'm not sure about this.
 

asnapper

Member
There are rumours of a Sony FX8 camera which will possibly have a 96MP FF sensor with this new sensor technology, so next year there is a good chance the A7rVI will launch with this or a modified version of the sensor, giving a boost to DR & resolution.
 

SrMphoto

Well-known member
My intention was not to discuss the usefulness of the A7V model per se, but the sensor technology innovation that could be applied to MF sensors as well:
a) improve max DR by one stop at least
b) make a partially stacked sensor useful for MF systems, where max IQ (including high DR) is paramount.
 

bab

Active member
This should be old news for many.

The 16 bit color advantage is a myth. Nobody can show the difference between 16 bit and 14 bit colors. The bit size is mainly about dynamic range, not color, and 14 bits are plenty in that regards for cropMF and FF sensors.
Even in IQ150, I see a 16 bit advantage only with frame averaging.

While the max PDR of a7V is close to that of cropMF sensors, this does not tell us everything about IQ. And then, there is the reaolution advantage of MF sensors.
Our vision or monitor can't see anywhere near these total Bit depth is primarily about tonal precision and dynamic range, the bent is in PP saftey not “more colors” in the way people usually think.
Color depth increases mathematically, but what you actually gain in practice is smoother tonal transitions and more usable dynamic range during editing.
16 Bit has 65,536 levels per channel and 281 trillion colors compared to 14 Bit has 16,383 levels per channel and 4.4 trillion colors so each extra bit doubles tonal precision per channel
16 bit has 64x more color but that's misleading because the real differences are noticeable durning file manipulation yielding more headroom for gradients, shadows and heavy color grading.
so 16 bit only matters if you edit heavy, push shadows and highlights or you care about the gradients or printing.
14 bit is perfect for web/social output, viewing on standard displays or you only do light editing (16 bit rounds the math and reduces rounding artifacts if you touch the file repeatedly , 16 Bit is much safer.
 

SrMphoto

Well-known member
Our vision or monitor can't see anywhere near these total Bit depth is primarily about tonal precision and dynamic range, the bent is in PP saftey not “more colors” in the way people usually think.
Color depth increases mathematically, but what you actually gain in practice is smoother tonal transitions and more usable dynamic range during editing.
16 Bit has 65,536 levels per channel and 281 trillion colors compared to 14 Bit has 16,383 levels per channel and 4.4 trillion colors so each extra bit doubles tonal precision per channel
16 bit has 64x more color but that's misleading because the real differences are noticeable durning file manipulation yielding more headroom for gradients, shadows and heavy color grading.
so 16 bit only matters if you edit heavy, push shadows and highlights or you care about the gradients or printing.
14 bit is perfect for web/social output, viewing on standard displays or you only do light editing (16 bit rounds the math and reduces rounding artifacts if you touch the file repeatedly , 16 Bit is much safer.
It has been demonstrated, and everybody can test it, that 16-bit does not yield less noise in deep shadows than 14-bit with current MF sensors. The sensors are too noisy. We need better sensors or frame averaging to see the benefit of 16-bit.
Nobody has shown or observed a difference in gradients or printing when using 16 vs 14 bits with MF sensors. While 16 bits are more, 14 bits are more than enough. Also, all processing of 16 and 14-bit raws occurs in the post-processor in the same bit space (I believe it is 15 bits in Photoshop).
I am happy to see evidence that 16-bit matters with MF sensors.
 

bab

Active member
I can't offer anymore to you than the math as proof what you need to do is a fairly heavy edit on both and print both if the difference is not apparent using your PP to your eyes then stay with the 14bit.

Your partially right in your response but I did not claim that 16 bit reduces noise when you say "Sensors are too noisy. We need better sensors or frame averaging to see the benefit" your correct if noise is larger than the size of the quantization steps, then increasing bit depth won't reduce visible noise.

So you say "no-one sees a difference"
Modern sensors are smooth in there tonal response, real world scenes rarely stress all channels equally and most displays and printers heavily mask differences. So yes I agree in many images you won't see banding in 14-bit with good exposures and gentle edits but that doesn't mean the precision isn't there or that it never matters. It means failure mode is rare, not non existent.

Where your argument or comment is technically weak is when you say "All processing happens in the same bit space anyway" I think your missing the fact that you can't invent what wasn't captured and The Higher precision math prevents further damage but it WILL NOT RESTORE LOST TONAL STEPS.

IF THE RAW CAPTURE CLIPS OR COARSE-QUANTIZES DATA: NO INTERNAL PIPELINE FIXES THAT LATER that why is said "16-bit is safer, not that it magically improves images. That being said the harder you push your file(s) the better chance you have with a 16-bit file because 16-bit reduces the risk of quantization artifacts rather than improving noise.

At very high dynamic range levels (around 18-20 stops), the perceptual benefit of an additional stop is small because current displays and prints cannot render it directly and the extra range must be tone-mapped. In practice the value of additional DR at that point is primarily in capture and processing headroom- exposure flexibility, highlight roll-off, and reduced risk of clipping-rather than a clearly visible important to most viewers. if you capture high-contrast landscapes, backlit scenes, seascapes with specular highlights and make large fine art prints as I do it matters. On the other hand it matter much less in portraits, low-contrast scenes and Web-Only output.

In closing my issue with smaller sensors (Sony Pony's and I own them) is not the fact that they can't make large prints it's the loss of resolution when cropping. With digital today I shoot mostly everything wider and then crop to taste, when I used to do a large amount of Macro we had to pull back to gain depth of field so a H6D-100c was my trick pony the file was huge and even though the objects only accounted for 1/3 of the sensor we still had enough mega-pixels to make 40x60" images tack sharp from a given viewing distance.
 

SrMphoto

Well-known member
According to measurements by Jim Kasson and Bill Claff, the lowest two bits in 16 bits raws are mainly noise. My view is that the lowest two bits do not carry any useful information and could be as well zeroed out.
 

SrMphoto

Well-known member
I found this article useful as it describes why 16-bits advantage is a myth:
 
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