High speed flash, A review of the power of the H2D leaf shutter and the Sony Global shutter.

[jduncan]

Hi,

This is a technical overview of Flash sync technologies and how it affect results.
It's unnerving that, suddenly, now that Sony can do high-speed flash sync YouTubers become aware of the advantages.
Even fstoppers that did that beautiful atlas picture using the Sun as the world did not consider using a Hasselblad and an ND but used massive amounts of flash.

Sony and Canon have the budget to fly the media all over the place and can bend the narrative. Small companies like Nikon have problems doing something like that. Miniature companies like Hasselblad and Phase One have even more issues trying to influence the influencers.

I have noticed that Hasselblad has been getting some good press, which could lead to some young people buying or aspiring for the camera. Modern AF is key for this. No matter how much I remember taking dance pictures with a Yashica in my teens this is not something most youngsters will do.

If Hasselblad can get its hands on a new sensor in the next two or three years, the H2D will hit the user market and new hands could get it. Thanks to Fuji, Sony may believe it's worth investing in new MF sensors/

The video is excellent to send to anyone trying to understand how Flash sync works, and the person will get a clear understanding of questions like " Why do they say that one controls the ambient with the shutter speed, not the flash?" etc. So it's a nice resource as a complement if you are teaching someone.

Results:
1. The Hasselblad does a fantastic job.
2. The Sony is amazing but finicky.
3. None of them can go too high with the Godox remote. For best results use cable.
4. The Hasselblad is better in the Studio and even more so outside.
5. The Sony actually can sync at insane speeds, sometimes sacrificing image quality, but it can actually do it.
6. The 90mm f2.5 is key for the victory because of it's 1/4000 flash sync.
7. Francly 1/800 is no longer enough to have an advantage. Phase One needs to improve, but they still have the 150 megapixels sensor.

Here is the video:

Best regards,

 

[Phase V]

7. Francly 1/800 is no longer enough to have an advantage. Phase One needs to improve, but they still have the 150 megapixels sensor.

Don´t know what you mean here, most SK lenses have 1/1600 sync speed, i think only the 240 is slower.
This DUDE should have done the comparison with a XF as well.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I am sorry, but Phase One's problem is not the flash sync speed, lol.

The LS lenses and XT lenses have high enough sync speeds to cover most realistic application scenarios. These paid reviews trying to make a use case for a non-problem are just sales ads.

The world's best fashion photographer's have been able to consistently produce front pages, editorial content with P1 systems over the last 20 years. They rely heavily on large-scale flash setups and need to control ambient light.

That should tell you all. If the best photographer's of the world can shoot Gucci campaigns with their P1 kits it should really give you pause to think if you feel the urge to lament on a forum that P1 should get their act together after seeing a forced Adorama ad making the case for the new little Sony, lol.

The new Sony's IQ is outright horrible if you look at the image samples outside.

I have shot quite a few times outside in backlit scenarios with the IQ4 and it is amazing what you can recover in the shadows with this chip. I don't think shooting 1/80000 flash sync is a real key feature P1 buyers long for. It is not needed with the ample dynamic range and the envelope to play with that you have with the existing flash sync.

Phase One's "problem" if you want to call it (they still have enough customers) is that the price point is very high, the innovation has slowed and that the new lenses cost as much as a whole Fuji kit including body. Each. That, combined with emerging alternatives, makes it a harder sell.

But that's all there is – it is just not the best value proposition for many; but the flash sync is very much ok including LS and XT sync.

 

[daz7]

how often do you shoot portraits against the mid-day sun shining directly into your lens?
You need the super short sync speeds to overpower the sun so rarely that you can forget about it for all practical purposes.
For normal applications flash sync does not matter much and even copal sync of 1/500 is more than enough. Heck, my Sinar CMV lenses with 1/60s sync are more than enough as I use flash in controlled settings and almost always at 1/8s or longer speeds.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

GS is useful for video, adapting lenses and building slimmer systems; for photography within existing flash ecosystems the use is overblown and maybe, maybe 35mm peeps will love it as it makes things easier sometimes. All the videos on youtube in my view look like ads for a product in search of an audience.

For video it is another thing altogether; you really want to avoid skewed objects in videos. And to adapt lenses it is also great for the same reason.

The ability to omit the shutter in designing bodies is finally the last great advantage, but even today this is solved via LS lenses.

So GS in the end to me is primarily a video thing and less a revolution for photography.

These are sales ads videos ...

 

[jduncan]

I am sorry, but Phase One's problem is not the flash sync speed, lol.

The LS lenses and XT lenses have high enough sync speeds to cover most realistic application scenarios. These paid reviews trying to make a use case for a non-problem are just sales ads.

The world's best fashion photographer's have been able to consistently produce front pages, editorial content with P1 systems over the last 20 years. They rely heavily on large-scale flash setups and need to control ambient light.

That should tell you all. If the best photographer's of the world can shoot Gucci campaigns with their P1 kits it should really give you pause to think if you feel the urge to lament on a forum that P1 should get their act together after seeing a forced Adorama ad making the case for the new little Sony, lol.

The new Sony's IQ is outright horrible if you look at the image samples outside.

I have shot quite a few times outside in backlit scenarios with the IQ4 and it is amazing what you can recover in the shadows with this chip. I don't think shooting 1/80000 flash sync is a real key feature P1 buyers long for. It is not needed with the ample dynamic range and the envelope to play with that you have with the existing flash sync.

Phase One's "problem" if you want to call it (they still have enough customers) is that the price point is very high, the innovation has slowed and that the new lenses cost as much as a whole Fuji kit including body. Each. That, combined with emerging alternatives, makes it a harder sell.

But that's all there is – it is just not the best value proposition for many, but the flash sync is very much ok including LS and XT sync.

Hi,
1. Don't know who you call "most of the best fashion photographers" and I am sure many are working with DSLR, mirrorless, Hasselblad, and yes, others will be shooting P1.

2. The one paying them is not Sony but Adorama which sells the 3 cameras so I don't believe they have bias, except the one I mentioned: they did not pay much attention to the flash Sync until a major brand was capable.

3. I was never one of the best dance photographers but I was able to take pictures of dancers jumping and dancing with a Yashica, I know the best Fashion Photographers can take fantastic photos with a potato and nice lighting.

4. I never say P1 can't be used, I say they have to improve. If you love the brand so much I believe being balanced is better: The song Honesty by Billy Joel comes to mind.

5. It's not only the backlit scenario, having high flash sync also helps to use far less power (faster recycle time) and a more dynamic environment on location. You can also carry Profoto B's instead of a pack and head and a powerplant


6. Nobody is talking about 1/80000 but going above 1/2000. The video shows that 1/25600 and up are seldom useful, and the IQ quality falls and the flash becomes inconsistent.

7. You say they are trying to sell the Sony Kid and the video finds that the Hasselblad is better for this application.

Frankly, I forgot how sensitive many P1 people are. I wonder where the insecurity is coming from. Maybe we could forget I mentioned that P1 needs to improve and focus on the fact that by having a close-to-modern platform, Hasselblad is again trying to generate new young sales and on the advantage of the Leaf Shutter. Fuji has a fantastic niche and I hope they continue to grow.
Best regards.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Hi

I am not as MFD or P1 biased as you think. I have an M11, SL2, and for many years I used Canon cameras (including the last-gen 1DX). I most of the time use the S, which isn't even P1.

I don't know what your point was with the post initially. Your first post above is confusing.

Also on the marketing front – it is less a question about money for these brands than rather hiring a good marketing manager to approach the business of using social media systematically. If any brand wanted, they could make sure we constantly see stuff on Youtube. It is not that difficult. Some youtubers will do it for a low fee, gear credit or just a loaner.

My point is that I've heard literally no one complain about P1's lacking flash sync. All their lenses are LS and the XT also syncs 1/1000 at least. That's enough for 99% of use cases.

Their problem is a totally different one – that one single XT lens costs as much as a Sony flagship camera with 2-3 lenses. And as an extension of this, that they've just burned all first-gen XT lens buyers by not disclosing that the shutters are not upgradeable.

That's their problem, lol.

Its pretty clear you've never touched an IQ4 – the DR is soo good, you will manage very well with 1/1000 flash sync.

 

[daz7]

Also, no-one buys a medium format backs to shoot sports, action or dancers. If you need to capture fast moving objects you buy a small format camera and then you can find a super short sync speed useful. Preaching about it to technical camera users is like praising fishing boots and wellingtons to ballet dancers.

 

[Phase V]

Wait a moment, i like fishing boots and welligtons on ballet dancers!
And the XF is a practical sports camera, as any other 4x5 or 8x10 gear, here is proof:

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Also, no-one buys a medium format backs to shoot sports, action or dancers. If you need to capture fast moving objects you buy a small format camera and then you can find a super short sync speed useful. Preaching about it to technical camera users is like praising fishing boots and wellingtons to ballet dancers.

That's the point. Flash sync is used a lot though in commercial (incl. macro) and editorial photography and actually the LS lenses with flash sync up to or beyond 1/1000 have long been considered the gold standard only available in DMF. XF and XT are not bought for action, lol.

Besides the fact that is is not a primary concern it is also not a problem in reality as the LS and X-shutter lenses sync speed covers 99% of scenarios jointly with high quality flashes. All Bron, Profoto, Elinchrom flashes can be had with short flash durations and really this covers all scenarios in conjunction with the high DR of the IQ4.

You can zap out the environment quite easily by going max LS sync + playing with aperture and the lowest available iso settings, often ISO below 100.

It has been easy with DMF to control light with flashes for a very long time spearheaded by Hasselblad and then P1 with their LS lenses.

 

[Ray Harrison]

Interesting historical side note regarding sports and medium format that I am still piecing together, but recently I was listening to an interview with Joe McNally over in Nikon-land, and he was talking about the evolution of camera tech. In passing he mentioned that at least some of the SI NBA shots in I think the 90s were done with Hasselblad / leaf-shutter lenses (and of course 35mm cameras like the F4, etc). I went down (and am still going down) various rabbit-holes and came across an interesting article that talked a little bit about all of the tech that went into making that happen, including the evolution of the radio transmitters for firing strobes in sporting arenas. https://defector.com/how-they-shot-the-last-shot

They used to hang strobes in the rafters to keep the flashes out of the eyes of the players with tons of hard-wired sync cable. Finally someone developed the radio transmitter to do the syncing called the FlashWizard. Interesting read, and I quite clearly love rabbit holes .

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Wasnt it:

LS lenses in MF, then DMF (H, P1 SK MK I, Leica S, which were ultimately based on a long lineage of analog LS lenses namely in the V system, maybe Rollei ?, Contax ?, etc.)
PW in 35mm
HSS in 35mm
GS Sony in 35mm

The leaf shutter systems were always expensive vs 35mm when they came out, now H and P1 SK MK silver ring lenses are a bargain. For a long time, up until HSS, LS was the gold standard with a high premium attached also in Leica S optics.

The X shutter is the last step in the sense that it allows you to use the incredibly sharp Rodie lenses at 1/1000 without skew from sensor readouts, ie from a plane or in a flash sync situation.

 

[daz7]

Mamiya had their LS lenses too for over 30 years- i had them all with my 645pro - they were marked N/L and were available in 55, 80 and 150mm lengths. There was an addiitonal flash sync port directly in the lens and it could sync down to 1/1000 I think (or maybe 1/500, Im not sure)

 

[guphotography]

I've been photographing environmental portraits for ten years before focusing on architecture.

Sure, flash sync speed is important when you need to balance the flash and ambient light, but faster does not mean better.

Photography is a light balancing act, those who boasts insanely fast flash sync speeds clearly has never worked in the field for very long, otherwise they would know better what speeds would be enough for 99% situations.

Besides, let's not give all the credits to technological improvements. A photographer's ability to creatively "get the shot" in any situation, using limited equipment, is what produces work that lasts.

At the end of the day, a tool is a tool. Though it may fool some under the clever disguise of marketers.

 

[PeterA]

Mamiya had their LS lenses too for over 30 years- i had them all with my 645pro - they were marked N/L and were available in 55, 80 and 150mm lengths. There was an addiitonal flash sync port directly in the lens and it could sync down to 1/1000 I think (or maybe 1/500, Im not sure)

From memory when I was shooting with mamiya RBZ kit : 1/500th

 

[Ben730]

Interesting historical side note regarding sports and medium format that I am still piecing together, but recently I was listening to an interview with Joe McNally over in Nikon-land, and he was talking about the evolution of camera tech. In passing he mentioned that at least some of the SI NBA shots in I think the 90s were done with Hasselblad / leaf-shutter lenses (and of course 35mm cameras like the F4, etc). I went down (and am still going down) various rabbit-holes and came across an interesting article that talked a little bit about all of the tech that went into making that happen, including the evolution of the radio transmitters for firing strobes in sporting arenas. https://defector.com/how-they-shot-the-last-shot

They used to hang strobes in the rafters to keep the flashes out of the eyes of the players with tons of hard-wired sync cable. Finally someone developed the radio transmitter to do the syncing called the FlashWizard. Interesting read, and I quite clearly love rabbit holes .

I remember shooting ice hockey games for newspapers and magazines 25 years ago with a Nikon F4s + SB24, Fuji 800 ISO film and 1/250s flash sync.
Back then I would have been happy with 1/1000 flash sync. Ice hockey is extremely fast, focusing was a challenge.