S4

[algrove]

OK, gentlemen. Have at it here and not on the SL3 thread if you please.

 

[MGrayson]

Definitely Schrödinger's Camera. I've heard reputable rumors of "dead in the water", "imminent (2025)", "no adapter for old S lenses", and "yes adapter for old S lenses".

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Its coming in 2025 and you'll be able to adapt all S glass.

Most likely pre-Summer, given Leica's financial year end is March, meaning to count revenues in they will release it after March.

 

[Photon42]

Definitely Schrödinger's Camera. I've heard reputable rumors of "dead in the water", "imminent (2025)", "no adapter for old S lenses", and "yes adapter for old S lenses".

You missed the ability to take cat photos

 

[anyone]

Nice to see another option in MF digital on the horizon! I won’t be in the market (a third system besides Fuji and Hasselblad would be a little much) but it’s good to have a choice, and no doubt that Leica will be pushing the limits.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think right now is the right time to pick up S glass. It will become more expensive once the S4 hits.

The vintage S glass will be its own flavor, marrying cinematic rendering with Leica open lens acuity while the new S lenses will be more like APO SL glass on steroids.

Every single focal length on the S great.

24, 35, 100, 120 stand out with the 120 and 180 having aprochromatic qualities although the 180 doesnt say it on the barrel.

The good thing as mentioned is that S4 replaces all colour 35mm bodies so you can optimize your kit to just a M12M and an S4.

If one owns S glass, or any Leica glass, the transition is significantly easier as you just need the body which you can cross-finance by selling older smaller 35mm bodies. Eg. 14k list less 4.5k for your SL3 and then all of a sudden the S4 is in reach.

TIME TO BUY UP S GLASS ON EBAY.

2-3k for optics like the 120 APO Macro is a real bargain.

The S24, S100 remain expensive, they are absolutely amazing.

 

[sawww]

Really hoping for a smaller, faster, 45mm lens for the S4. I'm tempted to pick the S45 lens up if they drop below $2k but it still has a lot going against it weight, size and speed wise.

 

[thedigitalbean]

Hmmm I'm wondering how they will pull off adapting SL lenses if the body has a focal plane shutter. Without a focal plane shutter, all the lenses would need leaf shutters and adapted lenses would be electronic shutter only (and given the number of megapixels and prioritizing image quality, the readout rate isn't likely going to be fast).

The SL mount has a flange distance of 20mm and I don't think there is realistically a way of incorporating a focal plane shutter and getting even closer. The XCD mount has a flange distance of 18.4mm and there you don't have a focal plane shutter. The Fuji GF has a flange distance of 26.7mm (because it has a focal plane shutter). I'm no camera designer but it seems like they'll have to make some hard tradeoffs here. If they do go down the path of no shutter and having leaf shutters on the lenses, the price of these new S glass will really be eye watering.

 

[akaru]

If they do go down the path of no shutter and having leaf shutters on the lenses, the price of these new S glass will really be eye watering.

If I were designing a new 135 camera, I would likely not have a fps. Price be damned. Global shutters are likely still far away, but I’d still want to design my lenses for future-proofing.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Hmmm I'm wondering how they will pull off adapting SL lenses if the body has a focal plane shutter. Without a focal plane shutter, all the lenses would need leaf shutters and adapted lenses would be electronic shutter only (and given the number of megapixels and prioritizing image quality, the readout rate isn't likely going to be fast).

The SL mount has a flange distance of 20mm and I don't think there is realistically a way of incorporating a focal plane shutter and getting even closer. The XCD mount has a flange distance of 18.4mm and there you don't have a focal plane shutter. The Fuji GF has a flange distance of 26.7mm (because it has a focal plane shutter). I'm no camera designer but it seems like they'll have to make some hard tradeoffs here. If they do go down the path of no shutter and having leaf shutters on the lenses, the price of these new S glass will really be eye watering.

I haven't asked about the CS part, but I think the target spec could be actually F2 APO and central shutter.

Its part of the professional aspiration to be able to do 1/1000 flash sync.

This would mean they can do a very short FFD, shorter than with the SL. As soon as you have 4-5 mm delta between SL's FFD and S's FFD an adapter should be no problem.

The best part is this though: I've heard a year ago that an M AF adapter is being considered, given even Sony can AF adapt M glass via third party adapters and it would be a shame to not offer this natively.

So that's cool: say 40x40mm of the 44x33 sensor useable in a special crop mode for M glass, in autofocus - amazing option for the Summiluxes ...

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Really hoping for a smaller, faster, 45mm lens for the S4. I'm tempted to pick the S45 lens up if they drop below $2k but it still has a lot going against it weight, size and speed wise.

I doubt they will drop below 2k.

The new S will be a totally different approach than the S2-3 in the sense that:

1) It'll be mirrorless, but with ultimate components, ie best EVF, best battery life, etc. -> highly attractive for SL, M users and a lot of upsell potential, especially with the adapter part; the old S was so expensive and you could't use M glass on it, so that's different. The S itself as a no costs shunned ultimate camera proposition IS highly alluring for enthusiasts.

2) Price-wise I understand they'll go below S3, above competition; ie more like 14k instead of 20kish which should help sales

3) The S users can all upgrade easily by keeping all their S glass; given the S4 is the only new system able to use the S mount, this is a VERY attractive avenue.

I would recommend to anyone thinking long-term here to:

LOAD UP ON S GLASS NOW. IT WILL NEVER BE AS CHEAP AS IT IS NOW.

If new S4 glass is 8k and vintage S2-6k depending on the lens, you can bet that the low end of the used price range will go up.

Especially the later releases like the 24mm, 100mm, 45mm won't ever be "cheap".

The S4 will correct the undervaluation currently in S glass.

These are 8k lenses after all, with excellent performance.

On top, I understand from Leica that there will be also a clear distincion in look with the new optics; the S classic lenses will be less clinically perfect than than the new APO S4 stuff, so people will actually want to own both.

 

[Photon42]

Hmmm I'm wondering how they will pull off adapting SL lenses if the body has a focal plane shutter. Without a focal plane shutter, all the lenses would need leaf shutters and adapted lenses would be electronic shutter only (and given the number of megapixels and prioritizing image quality, the readout rate isn't likely going to be fast).

The SL mount has a flange distance of 20mm and I don't think there is realistically a way of incorporating a focal plane shutter and getting even closer. The XCD mount has a flange distance of 18.4mm and there you don't have a focal plane shutter. The Fuji GF has a flange distance of 26.7mm (because it has a focal plane shutter). I'm no camera designer but it seems like they'll have to make some hard tradeoffs here. If they do go down the path of no shutter and having leaf shutters on the lenses, the price of these new S glass will really be eye watering.

Check the Nikon Z flange distance.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Yesm its not a a problem for Leica to create an FPS camera with less than 20mm. Also, if the mount is bigger Leica has the engineering capabilities to make an adapter with recess, if necessary.

I am most excited about a Leica branded M AF adapter with metadata transfer and optical corrections in body with crop modes beyond 35mm.

The Summilux 50 especially is known for its useability even on 44x33 systems with vignetting so combine that with AF, lens profiles, etc. and its actually AWESOME.

I can only repeat - time to buy up those S lenses, especially CS variants.

 

[Paratom]

S-glass is great but some of them are quite heavy. 30, 35,45,120 for example.70 and 100 are fine.
I will still keep my selection I doubt the old lenses will focus fast on a mirrorless body. They certainly don't on a sl3 with adapter. And very noisy.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Yes its overbuilt retrofocus goodness; the focusing speed on the S3 is quite fast, faster than on the S2 and quite a bit faster than on the SL3 where there needs to happen a conversion from phase detection to Leica S AF mechanism.

I'd say have a wait and see

 

[Manoli]

The new S will be a totally different approach than the S2-3 in the sense that:

1) It'll be mirrorless, but with ultimate components, ie best EVF, best battery life, etc...
2) Price-wise I understand they'll go below S3, above competition; ie more like 14k instead of 20kish which should help sales

All good news added to the latest revenue record report confirming that Leica are on the right path:

"Wetzlar, 20 November 2024. The Leica Camera Group registers another new revenue record for the fiscal year 2023/2024. With a renewed increase in revenue of 14% to EUR 554m against the previous year’s figure of EUR 485m ..."

Leica Camera: Record-Breaking Result in 2023/24

Here’s the press release: Leica Camera Achieves Record-Breaking Result in Fiscal Year 2023/24 In the fiscal year 2023/24, Leica Camera achieved the best result in the history of the company and continues to pursue its successful course with another record result Wetzlar, 20 November 2024. The Lei...

www.l-camera-forum.com

 

[Paul Spinnler]

If any company has the capital and know how to produce a new formidable medium format system in 2025 … it’s Leica.

Time to buy S glass …

 

[iiiNelson]

Does anyone have any insight on whether this will be 3.2 or 4:3 aspect ratio for the sensor?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

4:3, it will be the Sony stuff ... I hear now that actually the lenses will be Summarits ie 2.5, but aiming for SL like perfect IQ and it will accept all Leica glass including SL!

Time to buy S glass, and hold the purchase of an SL3....

 

[iiiNelson]

Yeah I was contemplating going with the Hasselblad XCD series but perhaps I’ll hold off and see what comes of this. I still “need” an updated color camera.