Schneider Super Angulon XL 5,6/38 mm and modern digital backs test.

[Alkibiades]

One of Schneider late lenses is the Super Angulon XL 120° 5,6/38 mm.
The lens was dedicated to all Film medium formats till 6x12 cm.
As the last XL lens that Schneider has produced this lens has a very special lensdesign with a extremly long rear lenselement, that allows to use the lens at the most camera systems (the lensboard dont need to be so close to the film-sensor as on traditional symetrical lensdesign).
This lens was a secret tip for digital backs, when Apo Digitar or Digaron-S was not available or too expensive.
But how would this lens perform with modern digital backs?
still sharp or not? LCC? usuable with movements?
So let see how the lens perform on phase one 250 with 50 MP.
This back has the same pixel destiny as the 100MP phase one back.
So the performance will be the same on both sensors.

 

[Alkibiades]

I started with F5,6 and no movements and found the lens too soft.
Than the F8 followed, the sharpness become better and in the cenetr not bad, but outside the center still too soft.
Now F11:
and the lens got a real gib rise in sharpness all over the sensor.
let see

 

[Alkibiades]

the lens is at F11 really nice sharp, so let see how it works with movements.
I used rise of 10 mm, something that will be used very offen at architecture shots.

 

[Alkibiades]

as you can see the movement of 10 mm can be well corrected with LCC of capture one.
The sharpness in the corners are very good.

 

[Alkibiades]

I made a compered test with digaron-S 4/35 mm.

 

[Alkibiades]

The digaron is realy sharp even wide open at F4.
The sharpness in the center is at F4 is incredible but need to be stopped down to F8 to get perfect corner sharpness.
stopped to 11 the performance is gerat all over the picture. the camera also use the 10 mm rise. The LCC can also be corrected with capture one.
If you compare the example from 38xl and 35 HR the differance at F11 is small and I would say for most not visible.
Not bad for the analoge old boy?

 

[Geoff]

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing.

One helpful aspect is the smaller sensor size of the 50 series, with 10mm movements not far out of the lens' strong center. Typically analog lenses do really well on center, and less good on far edges (made worse with movements). With a larger sensor size say of the 100 series, larger movements are likely to be less positive, as one is operating "further out" in the lens circle. However, In limited range, these analog lenses are quite useful (and inexpensive).

 

[cuida1991]

Hello, may I ask what DB you use for this test? And what's the performance of this lens when shifted at a larger scale?

 

[Alkibiades]

Hello, may I ask what DB you use for this test? And what's the performance of this lens when shifted at a larger scale?

Phase one IQ 250 was used for this test.
I can make bigger movements but 10 mm on 38 wide anle is much already.

 

[Bill_Evans]

I hope it’s okay to resurrect an older post, but I was wondering if you had thoughts on how the SA 38mm compares to the Grandagon 35mm on modern digital backs.

 

[Alkibiades]

I hope it’s okay to resurrect an older post, but I was wondering if you had thoughts on how the SA 38mm compares to the Grandagon 35mm on modern digital backs.

Yes, I compered Rodenstock Grandagon 35 mm and the digital version Apo Sironar Digital 35 mm and this lens is too soft for modern backs.
It will be OK for the 22 MP back, but even for the 39MP backs that are 15 years old this lens is too soft.
Also 35 mm has a really strong color cast, that cant be removed at many backs.
Also a big problem is that this lens is fully symmetrical ( 38 xl is not!) and it is very close to the image sensor, that make this lens hadr to use with technicak cameras. movemnt are mechanicly not possible. 38 xl is made for technical cameras and can be used very easy- forthis the 38 mm got these extra long rear element.

 

[rdeloe]

Does anyone have the lens data sheet for the 38/5.6 XL?

 

[4x5Australian]

Does anyone have the lens data sheet for the 38/5.6 XL?

Rob, here's the datasheet for the 38XL.

The effective focal length is 39.4mm.

The Schneider 'Large Format Lenses' brochure gives the flange focal distance as 52.1mm.

Rod

 

[rdeloe]

Thanks Rod! I've saved this to my collection.

 

[alexfth]

Has any one of you tested the Schneider Kreuznach Super Angulon XL 58/5.6 on a digital back? Maybe @Alkibiades ? A bit off topic of this thread, but I couldnt find a thread on the 58mm XL...

 

[Alkibiades]

I tested the schneider Super Angulon xl 58 mm or several backs and also used the lens before I got the Apo Digitar xl 60 mm and Digaron-S 60 mm for different system. they replaced the 58xl in the digital work but I stll use the 58 xl for fiim: 6x12 and 4x5 inch.
the 58xl is similar to rodenstock 55 mm. both have similar lensdesign, both have the 110° angle.
So when you have older back the 58xl will be fine for you.
But if you have one of the new backs you should go for the next level, that means 60xl for the large sensor ( I know it is expensive and rare) and the digaron-S 60 mm for the 33x44 sensor ( it is the sharpest lens in this range and will allow you 18 mm movements on 33x44 sensor that is build in Fuji gfx100 or Hasselblad 907 100c).
these both lenses will give you a big push in the sharpness of details, in the resolution at all and with digaron-S especially with very sharp edges even at big movements: schneider 58xl will be much softer at the edges when moved...

 

[alexfth]

Thank you for sharing your experience with it! I guess the digaron 60 will suffer from distortion in exchange?

 

[Alkibiades]

Thank you for sharing your experience with it! I guess the digaron 60 will suffer from distortion in exchange?

there are no visible distortion at normal use with movements about 15 mm on the 33x44 sensor.
Distortion is a problem only for Digarons till 40 mm, even when 35 hr and 40 hr have very, very low distortion.
The lens with strong distortion would be 32HR.
50 mm and 60 mm have no visible distortion.
I have done some extreme test of both lenses whe i go till the end of the image circle, so when you will get simply black edges.
IT is miles away from their usable image circle. So when you would have strait lines it the edges so only the distortion would be visible. But these were crazy tests that have nothing with normal use of these lenses. I normal use you will not see any distortion.

 

[Adammork]

there are no visible distortion at normal use with movements about 15 mm on the 33x44 sensor.
Distortion is a problem only for Digarons till 40 mm, even when 35 hr and 40 hr have very, very low distortion.
The lens with strong distortion would be 32HR.
50 mm and 60 mm have no visible distortion.
I have done some extreme test of both lenses whe i go till the end of the image circle, so when you will get simply black edges.
IT is miles away from their usable image circle. So when you would have strait lines it the edges so only the distortion would be visible. But these were crazy tests that have nothing with normal use of these lenses. I normal use you will not see any distortion.

In my experience when using the Alpa lens correction tool you will notice distortion with the Rodenstock 50mm - it’s very weak below 15mm of shit - so I normal don’t bother using it on images below 15mm of shift - but I always use it on image with more shift.

I always use the Alpa tool when using the 40HR even with zero shift - I’m only photographing architecture and like straight lines… on some motives you can get away with no correction with the 40mm, but only with shift below 10mm imo.