Sinar P3 DF - Adapting Small/Medium Format Cameras and lenses

[jng]

phase one backs with 50 MP are really cheap now. there is no a big difference to 100MP.

True, but there will be lens cast issues with the SK symmetric wide angle lenses on the 50 Mp sensors (both Hasselblad and Phase, they are the same sensors) and to a lesser extent on the 100 Mp IQ3 100, for that matter.

John

 

[Alkibiades]

True, but there will be lens cast issues with the SK symmetric wide angle lenses on the 50 Mp sensors (both Hasselblad and Phase, they are the same sensors) and to a lesser extent on the 100 Mp IQ3 100, for that matter.

John

the color cast will be on 100 MP also as this is exactly the same sensor but bigger cutted. no real difference.
anyway all backs will need a CC correction- even the IQ150 mm if you want to use 35xl ect...
the question is not if LCC is needed - it is always needed- but if the LCC function without negativ influence on image quality.

 

[rdeloe]

The Hasselblad CFV 100C uses a BSI sensor, same as Fuji GFX 100S. I left colour cast problems behind for the most part when I switched from the FSI sensor in GFX 50R to the BSI in 100S. I can use my 35 XL without an LCC. Light falloff remains an issue of course, but I do not see colour cast.

 

[Reginald Fluggelding]

True, but there will be lens cast issues with the SK symmetric wide angle lenses on the 50 Mp sensors (both Hasselblad and Phase, they are the same sensors) and to a lesser extent on the 100 Mp IQ3 100, for that matter.

John

There's really only going to be cast issues with wide angle lenses and he says he wants to use it for product photography so I can't imagine using the SK 43 or 35 or wider. If it's for studio use I'd also look at one of the full 645 60MP backs like the IQ1/2 or (Leaf Credo which I had and used with my P2). The live view is a little bit slow but quite usable for studio work. There is an advantage when using copal shutters for syncing with flash since you can have the back on zero latency mode and shoot quite quickly: for all of the advantages of the IQ4 it's quite a pain having to wake up the back when shooting with an external mechanical shutter. There are heaps of old lenses in the 50 + mm vicinity that are great and relatively cheap. I do most of my studio work with a very old Sironar-N 135, originally from a SINAR DB board that I reshuttered in a Copal shutter and it's really difficult to find any faults with it — I've had it for years so can't remember exactly but I believe it cost me about AUD $200.

 

[francescoprovino]

phase one backs with 50 MP are really cheap now. there is no a big difference to 100MP.
Phase one with rodenstock-schneider lenses: you have the possibilities to use wide angle lenses also.
for use Nikon kameras on Sinar p3 you get also cheap china adapters for about 170 euro. there are good enough for product and close up photography. the price of 400 euro for good modern rodenstock optic is too cheap...

Ehm, what do you mean by "really cheap"? I'm searching for something that can be tethered with Capture One and with live view capabilities (so, no firewire, no CCD)… I know about the chinese Nikon F adapter, Sinar told me this basically won't work with movements (only lens > 140mm, extremely limited angles due to mechanical vignetting).
The Sinaron are the CMV version, of course.

 

[francescoprovino]

Is there a specific reason why you'd require a Phase One IQ3 back vs, say, a (much less expensive) Hasselblad CFV100c or CFV50c digital back? Same sensor size as Fuji GFX without any flange distance limitations. As long as you can sync to a Copal shutter, you should be fine with flash (but unable to use Capture One for editing - wasn't clear whether this would be an issue for you).

John

John

Yep, one of the issue is that I don't want to change my tethering workflow that is based on C1.

 

[francescoprovino]

There's really only going to be cast issues with wide angle lenses and he says he wants to use it for product photography so I can't imagine using the SK 43 or 35 or wider. If it's for studio use I'd also look at one of the full 645 60MP backs like the IQ1/2 or (Leaf Credo which I had and used with my P2). The live view is a little bit slow but quite usable for studio work. There is an advantage when using copal shutters for syncing with flash since you can have the back on zero latency mode and shoot quite quickly: for all of the advantages of the IQ4 it's quite a pain having to wake up the back when shooting with an external mechanical shutter. There are heaps of old lenses in the 50 + mm vicinity that are great and relatively cheap. I do most of my studio work with a very old Sironar-N 135, originally from a SINAR DB board that I reshuttered in a Copal shutter and it's really difficult to find any faults with it — I've had it for years so can't remember exactly but I believe it cost me about AUD $200.

That's nice! I was thinking about experimenting with longer focal lengths anyway. No experience with Leaf credo though… I read a lot of recent posts here about reshuttering lenses in Copal and I've to say I'm a little terrified by that

 

[Reginald Fluggelding]

That's nice! I was thinking about experimenting with longer focal lengths anyway. No experience with Leaf credo though… I read a lot of recent posts here about reshuttering lenses in Copal and I've to say I'm a little terrified by that

The Credo 60 is for all intents and purposes the same back as an IQ 60 series back in a slightly different housing and with a different UI (there is IQ1, 2 and 3 as far as I recall with some variations in features and I can't remember off the top of my head what the differences are). The IQ series and Credo series have USB3 as well as firewire so tethering isn't a problem. They are CCD sensor backs hence the slow live view, but a lot of people really like the CCD look, me included. I tried some files from an IQ3100 and didn't really like them in comparison — at least the colour profiles available for it, even the special Leaf for Phase One profiles. The Leaf backs have different profiles made by Leaf which I personally like.

The 50 MP backs are a cropped sensor like the GFX and Hasselblad cameras. I can see a couple on CI's website at the moment for $2.5–2.9K which is still not really cheap but compared to new very reasonable. for a IQ260 I think you'd pay $4–5K from a dealer. I sold mine privately for around $5K AUD a few years ago.

You can find some every inexpensive Copal based lenses on eBay to mess around with, it's pretty simple to do for longer focal lengths where the tolerances aren't as critical, nothing to be scared of. The issue being if you have SINAR DB, etc. mounted lenses then you still need the Copal shutter and that is a little harder to find on it's own in good condition. Ideally you buy a lens that is already in a Copal shutter and it is just a case of changing lens boards. Unless you keep using a camera with a built in shutter then there's no need to do anything, as long as you can change the aperture on the lens you have (not possible on some SINAR speciefic mounts without other gadgets that I would avoid) You should have a look @rdeloe website, he has put together a good resource on some lenses that are available.

 

[jng]

I loved the files from my IQ160, which I found to be more pleasing than those from the IQ3 100 that replaced it. And, while I never used it in a studio environment, I can say that live view in the field with the IQ160's CCD sensor was a royal PITA, just about unusable for me on a tech cam (I resorted to using a ground glass to focus) and my major motivation in moving to the IQ3. YMMV, of course! So, if use of symmetric wide angle lenses is not a priority, as previously suggested one of the 50 Mp CMOS backs does seem like a good way to go, although the P1 backs may or may not fit into your budget.

John

 

[Alkibiades]

Ehm, what do you mean by "really cheap"? I'm searching for something that can be tethered with Capture One and with live view capabilities (so, no firewire, no CCD)… I know about the chinese Nikon F adapter, Sinar told me this basically won't work with movements (only lens > 140mm, extremely limited angles due to mechanical vignetting).
The Sinaron are the CMV version, of course.

Really cheap backs with Sony 50 MP sensor like IQ150 and IQ250, you get them now about 2500-2800 euro.
They have the same great live view as the 100 MP and 150 MP backs.
Sometimes there is also the Leaf credo 50 even cheaper...some sensor...
it is a real pleasure to work with.
forget all CCD chips when you want a real Live view.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

the color cast will be on 100 MP also as this is exactly the same sensor but bigger cutted. no real difference.
anyway all backs will need a CC correction- even the IQ150 mm if you want to use 35xl ect...
the question is not if LCC is needed - it is always needed- but if the LCC function without negativ influence on image quality.

Both 50mp and 100mp sensors from that generation of Phase One will yes, produce significant color cast. However, they are not different sizes of the exact same sensor.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[daz7]

about problems with P2 getting the correct spacing for optical axis - it can be resolved by using a wide rear frame (quite rear but still showing online from time to time) - this was made for digital backs sepcifaclly and solves the issue on P2 cameras with the tilting point being off compared to the film. The problem does not exist in a P3 camera but only if you use Sinar digital backs - with other backs or cameras, their sensor placement may be a bit off and then applying a Schempflug focus may be a bit more complicated than by using all-Sinar two points system.
And about the live view with CCD - Sinarbacks' live view (all CCD) work beautifully when paired up with the Sinar's so called LCD shutter (attachment to the lens for a live view) - live view in full colour works with just a little bit of delay but for studio use that's more than enough. Obviously you would not use it for fast moving objects like cars or children and even for portrait photography that would be a stretch but for products and still life it is great.
It's a pitty that Sinar is out of business and stopped making digital backs a good number of years ago (they sopped making them at 48 megapixel and 192 megapixel in a multishot mode) - I found them extremally pleasing colour-wise and possibly beating even Credo CCDs with their colour fidelity.

 

[Alkibiades]

about problems with P2 getting the correct spacing for optical axis - it can be resolved by using a wide rear frame (quite rear but still showing online from time to time) - this was made for digital backs sepcifaclly and solves the issue on P2 cameras with the tilting point being off compared to the film. The problem does not exist in a P3 camera but only if you use Sinar digital backs - with other backs or cameras, their sensor placement may be a bit off and then applying a Schempflug focus may be a bit more complicated than by using all-Sinar two points system.
And about the live view with CCD - Sinarbacks' live view (all CCD) work beautifully when paired up with the Sinar's so called LCD shutter (attachment to the lens for a live view) - live view in full colour works with just a little bit of delay but for studio use that's more than enough. Obviously you would not use it for fast moving objects like cars or children and even for portrait photography that would be a stretch but for products and still life it is great.
It's a pitty that Sinar is out of business and stopped making digital backs a good number of years ago (they sopped making them at 48 megapixel and 192 megapixel in a multishot mode) - I found them extremally pleasing colour-wise and possibly beating even Credo CCDs with their colour fidelity.

Yes , it is very sad that Jena Optik stopped the sinar back production...

 

[Pavi4004]

Hi
In your case I would use the p3 as a base and buy just the 4x5 frames.
In this way all lenses on a Sinar lens board are compatible even if they don't have a shutter, you use the shutter of your Nikon D800.

Buy the china adapter in the famous bay (around 300$) with a specific bellow.

For under 500$ your Nikon is ready to rock'n'roll...

 

[daz7]

Just one more thing - if you can, try to buy a P3-DF (DF stands for Digital Focus) instead of the normal P3 variant - the updated focusing resolution can make a difference with focusing. You can easily tell the versions aside by looking at the focusing knob of the Sinar P3 - standard versions have a relatively small diameter middle ring (only slightly wider than the focusing knob itself), while the DF verion's middle knob (that's the one with the scale of depth on it) is much bigger, practically as big as the vertical movements knob.
It is apparent straight away which versions you are looking at.
You can also test it by turning the focusing knob - normal P3 version moves the standard back and forth by around 16mm when applying the full revolution of the focusing knob, and the P3-DF verions moves it by 10mm, so you get a significant increase in focusing precision.

I am mentioning this, as a lot of second hand Sinar P3 cameras are advertised or being sold as a DF versions, while in fact very few actually are. You can even get mis-labelled cameras from the dealers sometimes, which is horrible if you ask me.
DF version upgrade did cost around $1000 and you had to send your P3 to Sinar factories. I have both DF and non-DF versions and highly recommend getting a DF one if you can.