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Digital medium format in 2024 – it's not dead!

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P. Chong

Well-known member
thanks Paul for the summary. Nice! And useful.

I am hoping that Fuji management sees that they have missed out the high end, and decide to do a modular GFX100whatever. The removable back will be usable on tech cameras. They teased a non-operating one years ago. Perhaps not for completely commercial reasons, as the market is super tiny and shrinking, but for pride of offering the entire range and domination. Japanese company philosophy has been known to do that.
 
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daz7

Active member
I believe that S007 sensor from Leica is the same sensor as used in the last Sinarback produced - an S30|45.
Most probably they keep it in stock to service S30|45 backs or maybe even manufacture some - the idea was great, especially that it was one of very few sensors with a full 4K video support in a modular form. Now it is a bit outdated though.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Yes, its a 8 year old CMOS sensor with 37 MPX - I was surprised to hear that the EOL price they want is still north of 5k EUR; you can buy one if you call in.

Except if you want to run a museum at one point this would be the worst 5k EUR spent ever IMHO, lol.

Well what happened was Leica bought Sinar and to not be the company ultimately burying Sinar they sold the whole inventory at a great price to MacConsult.

They are now selling down LanTec etc. stock including lenses and these odd bits and pieces like the S30/45.

If the brand is wound down in 3 years or later Leica wouldn't be to blame.

Given that it is a low overhead side hustle almost within an IT firm I think it is still safe to stay.

The case of Sinar today IMHO would be to get a refurbished P3 or have them as sort of repair shop for P3s if you own one of these for your studio photography.
 

buildbot

Well-known member
Except if you want to run a museum at one point this would be the worst 5k EUR spent ever IMHO, lol.
I do a little bit. I really like the idea of a swappable mounting plate. It’s not rational at all haha. I’ll wait until one shows up lightly used somewhere…

Still looking for a sinar m af module first!

In the future, I dream of a mirrorless global sensor Phase One body/Frame. Have the digital back be powered by the frame or usb-c optionally and make it super light. Make the frame just be a spacer with buttons and a grip basically, and scale up the idea for tech camera frames. Create new mirrorless blue ring lenses. Sell for 20k? It’s a dream after all ;)
 

daz7

Active member
Yeah, the sinar M and the whole modularity idea was genius. One camera to serve as a standalone MFD camera with a focus module, a shutter for view cameras and even the shutter for DB lenses with adaptor.
If only they opened the system for backs other than Sinar's own that would be a huge success.
 

dchew

Well-known member
So everyone on board to plunk down 25k for the IQ5 upgrade and some nice XT gear next year?
My current IQ5 wish list, in order of preference / belief it would happen:
Better screen and viewing options
Longer DE+ limit (currently 0.9 sec)
54x54 option to eliminate rotating the camera/back
Global shutter

6x6 format might seem ridiculous, but I think it makes some sense. Wouldn't require new sensor technology. Marketing buzz around 200mpx even though we would almost always crop to another format, adds XT tilt for vertical shots, no need to rotate/remove the DB, etc.

If they did the top three things, I'm in. Top two, maybe but it wouldn't be right away. Oh, and I don't see an XT in my future unless they come up with something I haven't thought of.

Dave
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
If they up the dynamic range by one stop I am in.

I shot film side by side with the IQ4 this summer and there was still a marked difference between how whole a color neg exposure looked vs the IQ exposure especially on a sunny day with shadows in the scene.

Of course it can be managed, but Arri has shown what is possible …
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
Friendly reminder that digital medium will never die if we keep enjoying and having fun with the gear we already have :)

That said, I’m looking forward to seeing what all the manufacturers do in 2024 and 2025 (esp the S4)
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
6x6 format might seem ridiculous, but I think it makes some sense. Wouldn't require new sensor technology. Marketing buzz around 200mpx even though we would almost always crop to another format, adds XT tilt for vertical shots, no need to rotate/remove the DB, etc.


Dave

Yes. With you. Why not? (other than cost) If ever there was a time ...

Would you pay 30% more for a square sensor?


Steve hendrix/CI
 

diggles

Well-known member
Lens prices
  1. Rodie HR: lenses have increased in price and used market is dry; ie people are holding onto their lenses still = stable prices
Interestingly enough, Rodie HR lenses are very rare on eBay still unlike the prior gen sironar digitals, for example.
Hmm…there are 18 Rodenstock HR lenses on ebay right now. Just search Rodenstock Digaron, here is a breakdown…
  • 23HR x4
  • 28HR x2
  • 32HR x4
  • 35HR x2
  • 50HR x1
  • 70HR x1
  • 90HR x3 "Blue Ring"
  • 105HR x1
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Hmm…there are 18 Rodenstock HR lenses on ebay right now. Just search Rodenstock Digaron, here is a breakdown…
  • 23HR x4
  • 32HR x4
  • 50HR x1
  • 70HR x1
  • 105HR x1
Ok, removing the blue ring 90 HR which should be a sironar digital for 900 bucks and the old-gen Digaron-S 28 and 35 which just sit around for ages without buyer you do have a quite limited selection on a global basis. Not even accounting for the mounts they are in.

Then you look at the prices and the mounts or lack thereof (which means its 2k-3k on top to mount) and you can see that the selection is limited and priced on the high end.

A copal 23 for 7k without mount is hardly liquid market. You might as well bargain 10% off with your dealer and get a new one for same price with AU. I also cannot see all lenses, may have to do with me being in Switzerland. I see a Rodie 70 in Cambo mount for 6k – that's not too far off from new, is it?

Prices are stable, supply is limited for people to get a "cheap entry".

That's what I tried to convey – secondary markets are not a super easy backdoor into tech cams if you want current gen lenses.

Your SK lenses sold on the high end as well – there are no bargains for Rodie HR and SK late-gen Magic Four and it seems to me that people hold on to them.

Rodenstock still sells – to my knowledge – 4m EUR of lenses p.a., assuming 5k average B2B price that's a 800 lenses per year RN. Assuming 800 lenses p.a. to not even have every focal length on sale 2nd hand at any given time is quite telling of a tight supply / demand situation.
 
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Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Yesterday we received a Rodenstock 23 HR-S into our inventory and we declined to give this lens an optically passing grade on our inspection. It was close, but not close enough to where it should be. Perhaps some who don't look too closely or don't have years of known performance references for each lens would be thrilled with leaving some performance on the table. This was not even a trade in from the used market, this was a brand new lens. Back it goes. We throughly inspect every view camera/technical camera lens. Just saying. 😕:)


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

jng

Well-known member
Yes. With you. Why not? (other than cost) If ever there was a time ...

Would you pay 30% more for a square sensor?


Steve hendrix/CI
Hah. I am perfectly content with my IQ4 150. But I miss the 6x6 format of my old Hasselblad(s). The thought of cropping to 40x40cm still feels a bit wrong, so a 54x54 sensor would probably land me in big, big trouble. Imagine the possibilities! I think a full-frame square sensor falls under the heading of "be careful what you wish for."

John
 

Phase V

Active member
So everyone on board to plunk down 25k for the IQ5 upgrade and some nice XT gear next year?
There will be no IQ5 in 2024, that´s what the Phase One guy, who is responsible for European, told me
some weeks ago at Calumet Munich. Maybe 2025, IF Sony has a new sensor ready.
 

jng

Well-known member
It wouldn’t make sense, but I would be seriously tempted by a 6x6 full frame sensor. No need for 200mpix though..
Agreed, for me it's about the sensor dimensions and not the increased megapixel count. We're already at the point of diminishing returns in terms of megapixel count and pixel pitch (Google "Airy disc" and "Nyquist frequency"), although 200 Mp could/would be used as marketing fodder.

Realistically, however, a full-frame square sensor is almost certainly not in the cards. But with an appropriately cooperative subject, it's easy enough to shift and stitch on a tech cam to generate a 6x6 image.

John
 

akaru

Active member
Yes. With you. Why not? (other than cost) If ever there was a time ...

Would you pay 30% more for a square sensor?


Steve hendrix/CI
Absolutely. Dave’s points are spot-on. You get to (nominally) 200MP without requiring a new sensor to be released. You can offer a more compact body and get past the design limitation of tilt on the XT, and the XC makes a bit more sense. Existing lenses get a free stitch. Would be another differentiator with “crop” MF. And now you get to charge more than ever. Any reason other than money that this hasn’t been produced? If the achro and M Monochrom tell us anything about the market, speciality high-end can do well even if it’s more limiting.

A (again, nominally) 6x6 db would be the holy grail for me. It’s hip to be square.
 
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