Leica SL3

[Paul Spinnler]

That's why IMHO you will only need two Leica cameras:

M12M -> will come out in 2026 and have 100 MPX B&W
S4 next year -> replaces all colour Leica cameras, not much larger than SL3, accepts everything

By relegating the M to B&W you still have the joy of a compact system if needed, plus B&W which is unique, and the S4 covers all the rest.

Think more res, better EVF, more glass options.

In fact, most likely you'll be able to use Leica M glass in a bigger crop than 36x24. Imagine 36x36 for the Hasselblad V feel!

 

[Manoli]

That's why IMHO you will only need two Leica cameras:

Perhaps we should rename this thread 'Paul Spinnier - unleashed' [/jesting]

But Paul does have a point. I bought the SL3 for use w/ M mount lenses - both latest versions and the irreplaceable vintage 75mm Summilux - for that 'look'. Everything else is sold except for the original M8 (and yes, I still use it particularly for B&W).

The S4 is still vaporware but weighs heavily on thoughts for the future. I'm expecting 2nd gen SL glass to be announced. How Leica handles these announcements will be 'interesting' If there is true interoperability between the new MF glass and the current SL / L-mount, Leica risk alienating many users releasing these lenses without a clear roadmap for the future MF/(S4) line.

If ( a big 'if') I add the S4 , I won't be best pleased if Leica then announce a new S4 range just months after a not inconsiderable investment in new SL glass. My suspicion is that they'll release a new series usable on both cameras w/ a downsizing adapter for the SL line - possibly running in parallel to the current SL range.

The fiasco w/ the original S lenses didn't help them and Leica will, IMO, be unlikely to tread that slippery slope again.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

No its already confirmed - there will be adapters for M and S vintage, my understanding was also SL. I've been told by a Leica S sales rep that M and S vintage will definitely work, so vintage S glass, which easily resolves 100 megapixels, is an absolute bargain. In fact, having access to both vintage S and modern S is fantastic as the modern S lenses will be more like the SL APO lenses - ie perfect across the frame, while vintage S is not totally perfect, it has a special rendering distinct from the cleanlilness of Leicas APO glass.

Re M only thing up in the air is whether they'll directly release an AF M adapter, I also heard it is being discussed. In terms of focal flange distance the new S will be the shortest of all systems to give max flexibility for adapters and lens design.

There will be a new range of S4 optics - target spec is 2.0 for most and APO.

There's no problem between the systems of SL is priced at 6500 and S4 at say 13k - it still segments the market nicely. If you already know you will get the S4, funds permitting, its prudent to not buy SL optics and skip the SL system.

Size wise the S4 will not be thaat much bigger than the SL3; the main obstacle for most will literally be the price.

From talking to Leica people it will be priced between S3 and other competitors now, so a bit less than S3.

The APO SL optics have a reason to exist even on an S4 - they will be more compact and cheaper.

I would assume 5k vs. 7-9k.

What do you mean with second gen SL glass.

They APO SL optics are already so good, difficult to improve and also not necessary, they can resolve approaching 200 MPX in the centre ... the only thing open might be:

1) 24 SL APO (its on the original roadmap, they prioritized the 21 Super APO SL, the world's widest APO lens)
2) Longer primes
3) More budget rebrands
4) 35 Summilux - but maybe too big and too low demand

 

[Manoli]

There will be a new range of S4 optics and S vintage can still be used as will be M and SL glass.
[...]
If you already know you will get the S4, funds permitting, it's prudent to not buy SL optics and skip the SL system.
[...]
The APO SL optics have a reason to exist even on an S4 - they will be more compact and cheaper.
I would assume 5k vs. 7-9k.

Given the scenario you're suggesting then I'll buy the new S4 optics - irrespective of whether or not I add the S4.
Tend to follow the mantra "you date a camera body but marry a lens".
Just a personal opinion.

There will be a new range of S4 optics and S vintage can still be used as will be M and SL glass.

Just to be clear from your statement above - the new S4 optics will also be usable on an SL ?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Given the scenario you're suggesting then I'll buy the new S4 optics - irrespective of whether or not I add the S4.
Tend to follow the mantra "you date a camera body but marry a lens".
Just a personal opinion.



Just to be clear from your statement above - the new S4 optics will also be usable on an SL ?

No the new S4 optics will only be useable on the S4

 

[thedigitalbean]

Curious if they will just use the 44x33 sensors that the competitors are using. For me that would be great as the 4:3 aspect ratio is one of the most appealing parts of the current MF bodies. If they did a custom 3:2 sensor, I’d be disappointed.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Curious if they will just use the 44x33 sensors that the competitors are using. For me that would be great as the 4:3 aspect ratio is one of the most appealing parts of the current MF bodies. If they did a custom 3:2 sensor, I’d be disappointed.

No, they stopped custom sensors after the SL2/S3 gen; they are all on Sony, but the S4 will have its own colour signature mimicking the S3’s distinct more high end look. It’s an interplay between the image processing chip, and the sensor and it will be different from SL3 and M11.

They are aware of HNCS and S3 has a loyal following with very nice colours.

 

[akaru]

Any tips on understanding the naming scheme Leica uses? I keep thinking we’re talking about a new full frame camera. S for MF, SL for FF…so SL is not the SLR, but S is.

Or is the S4 going to actually be a new kind of MF mirrorless? Or is that another line?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Leica has always maintained an aspirational, no-compromise line of cameras called "S". For this series, price is no object - it's all about the best available optics and largest sensors possible.

Currently, we have the S3 with its custom 45x30mm sensor, and now Leica is developing their mirrorless answer to Fuji and Hasselblad.

They're combining all their learnings from both the S3 and the SL (their professional 35mm camera) to create a category-defining next-gen premium medium format mirrorless - the S4.

The S4 will represent the absolute pinnacle in every aspect, featuring flagship capabilities like superior water resistance, an all-F2 APO lens lineup, and exceptional battery life.

It's scheduled for release in 2025 - they're currently finalizing critical elements like the sensor and imaging pipeline. The S4 lens line is particularly significant as it represents Peter Karbe's final project as an advisor to Leica.

Think of it this way: the S4 and its new glass will establish the benchmark in medium format optics and image quality, with premium components distinct from the SL series, including an enhanced EVF.

Yes, it's going to be expensive, and yes, it's going to be extraordinary.

F2. APO. Medium Format.

Like Apple, Leica had the luxury of observing from the sidelines, learning from their SL experience while studying Hasselblad's and Fuji's approaches, to craft a truly magnificent camera system. They've leveraged extensive knowledge from SL APO manufacturing and are applying the latest aspheric and precision manufacturing technologies to the S4 lens lineup.

And with Peter Karbe crafting his magnum opus at the career's twilight with this new lineup, we can expect nothing short of optically mindblowing results. Peter is a true legend and for people in the know, his S glass is unmatched in cinematic look and feel and on top he managed to create a world famous next-gen Leica look with the lineage of Summiluxes which came out since the early 2000s based on his design.

He's on the S4 lens case. That's like Da Vinci being tasked to paint a portrait of you, you know.

 

[akaru]

So the S line isn’t tied to being an SLR?

If I get a non-tech cam I want fast, good manual focus but good enough AF that I don’t need it, and compact lenses.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

The S line is transitioning to mirrorless with the S4. Leica has taken its time for the transition of their medium format system. They waited one generation longer than the others and can now hit back harder and better as a result.

Essentially, if you so will, the S2 was the equivalent of the XF or the last Hasselblad H camera and while Hasselblad transitioned to mirrorless years ago - when technology was still nascent in terms of EVF – they did "another round" on the mirror-based train with the S3 while Phase One never came around to invest in mirrorless alltogether.

S4 is now their belated entry into medium format MIRRORLESS. Its a new system with a new line of optics.

A MEDIUM FORMAT AF MOUNT AND A NEW LINE OF MEDIUM FORMAT OPTICS IN 2025!

Cannot stress how rare a new medium format mount is in a Fuji / Hassy low price market.

Developing a new camera system costs double-digit millions and Leica is the only player globally who in this day and age still has the cash, conviction and clientele to launch a newm mirrorless system in a cutthroat market where Fuji undercuts everyone and where Hasselblad established a good following among young photographers watching youtube influencers.

So in that regard this is a significant development in the marketplace.

And with Leica it was always about the optics and with the S line it was always about no compromise.

Whereas in the SL, M lines designers get cost targets, the S design principles favour no conpromises vs. price.

So don't be surprised when you see a. 65mm F2.0 APO lens for 8k – but an MTF chart to die for.

This is just a foreshadowing of what's to come with the S4 – look at these 21mm! MTFs:




Now imagine this but for a medium format UWA, water resistant, with AF and aporchromatically corrected.

C'mon.

Its gonna be expensive, but unmatched. Peter is doing his finest work on the S4 glass lineup. Essentially the best optics designer in the world is working on these lenses.

 

[algrove]

If an S4 is over $10k then that is double what I paid for my GFX100SII. No thanks. Then new glass. No thanks again.
I'd rather spend that kind of money on new photo travel adventures.

Hey Paul, interesting information on the S4, but why not start a new S4 thread so as to keep SL3 subjects on this thread and bring attention to the up coming S4 with its own thread.

 

[Manoli]

*deleted

 

[Paul Spinnler]

So this is where we get into ‘deep water’.
If the above is correct,
the current S lenses will mount on the S4;
the current S lenses mount, via an adapter, on the SL;
yet the new S line will not.

I’m sceptical. If accurate, this implies that we‘ll have, not just new f2 APO ‘S’ lenses, but a new mount as well.
If Leica are indeed engineering another mount, then the current S lenses will only mount on the S4 with - yet another adapter.

I know you used the word ‘useable’ (suitably open to interpretation) but if it’s not a new mount, deliberately crippling the new lenses would not, IMO, be a wise decision.

What are you talking about. You seem to lack a fundamental understanding of focal flange distance and what mirrorless implies.

The S classic lenses where retrofocus designed for a long focal flange distance of 53mm, incorporating a mirror box. Doesnt make sense to leave a huge box of air in front of a sensor in a mirrorless camera design. Moving a system to mirrorless is a paradigmatic shift leading to a new mount and lens line. Its rare and expensive and exciting for optical designers to be able to position the lens elements closer to the sensor, thereby allowing for more design flexibility, incl. symmetrical designs with less lens elements.

The Leica L mount is 20mm. Nikon Z mount is 16mm. They can be that short, because there's no mirror. Shorter FFD allows you to build larger F-Stop lenses in more compact designs as the focal point is closer. It has other advantages, but this is one. Rule of thumb is that you can adapt from shorter to longer FFD. So if the S4 mount is 15mm, they could easily adapt SL (with 5mm for the adapter), S classic or M lenses.

Like all players moving to mirrorless, they will use the gained flexibility to design a new mount and optimized lenses. I have confirmation of the new mount and backwards compatibility with S classic and M lenses, SL is my understanding is also part of it, but I hadn't asked that specifically.

I also understand that they are aware of M AF adapters from third parties and are considering making AF mount adapters for M glass on the S4.

The Summilux 50, with vignetting, has a large enough IC to cover 44x33; imagine this lens in AF on a Leica body with firmware level optics corrections baked into raw in medium format crop mode, including a Hasselblad square mode 44x44!

 

[Manoli]

What are you talking about.

I’d misread one of your earlier posts and promptly deleted my post well before your reply. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the patronising intro, thanks - as I see from the time stamps you kept on refining it for over an hour after my deletion!

Back on topic , do you have any info as to whether Leica are working on an SL3 firmware update that will incorporate pixel-shift ?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I’d misread one of your earlier posts and promptly deleted my post well before your reply. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the patronising intro, thanks - as I see from the time stamps you kept on refining it for over an hour after my deletion!

Back on topic , do you have any info as to whether Leica are working on an SL3 firmware update that will incorporate pixel-shift ?

Sorry for the tone, Manoli.

No I don’t - IMHO pixel shift ist not really useful in practice except if you are into product / macro photography as outside of the studio you always need to bring along a tripod, pay attention to scene changes to avoid artifacts and upscaling leads to virtually identical results with good base images (ie SL glass); note that with Gigapixel you can tweak sharpening and noise reduction and from an SL APO glass base image uprezzing is extremely forgiving given the initial high quality.

.

 

[ptomsu]

Folks, this is actually the SL3 threat and frankly I do not understand why we are discussing the Leica S in this threat. So please do it elsewhere!

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Alright – the SL three is an amazing camera and everyone on the fence of all this tech cam stuff or wanting to move away from P1 etc. should have a hard look at Leica's APO glass. Its 5k per lens well spent.

It seriously punches above its weight so to say and for architectural photography in particular the 21 APO SL and 28 APO SL are truly spectacular.

 

[PeterA]

Alright – the SL three is an amazing camera and everyone on the fence of all this tech cam stuff or wanting to move away from P1 etc. should have a hard look at Leica's APO glass. Its 5k per lens well spent.

It seriously punches above its weight so to say and for architectural photography in particular the 21 APO SL and 28 APO SL are truly spectacular.

Is this 'discovery ' of Leica APO glass' a new thing for your Paul? It is kind of old news for Leica shooters. These days people are searching for 'character lenses' more than the latest piece of exotica which is really good at making high contrast imagery that produces a boring sameness over and over again.

Oh btw - when I need the best IQ I dont use any Leica camera or lens - I shoot with a Hasselbald X2D and one of the many XCD lenses I was talked into by watching too many youtube influencers.. I mean really mate- do you think people that can afford to drop tens of thousands of dollars into a hobby are also STOOPID enough to make their decisions based on youtube influencers?

Glad you are looking forward to buying the best - if that is what floats yoru boat - go for it!.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Is this 'discovery ' of Leica APO glass' a new thing for your Paul? It is kind of old news for Leica shooters. These days people are searching for 'character lenses' more than the latest piece of exotica which is really good at making high contrast imagery that produces a boring sameness over and over again.

Oh btw - when I need the best IQ I dont use any Leica camera or lens - I shoot with a Hasselbald X2D and one of the many XCD lenses I was talked into by watching too many youtube influencers.. I mean really mate- do you think people that can afford to drop tens of thousands of dollars into a hobby are also STOOPID enough to make their decisions based on youtube influencers?

Glad you are looking forward to buying the best - if that is what floats yoru boat - go for it!.

What are you talking about. I've been a Leica shooter since the 2000s (M8, then M9 + 50 SX when they came out) and had the SL, SL2 (recently sold) and now held off from the SL3 because the S4 will cover both the SL3 and S3; and no, I am not new to APO glass. I know Leica in and out.

I have all S lenses (except the zoom), all APO M lenses, a few Summiluxes, on the SL all APO primes + the SX50 except the 21. I just recently filled the "SL APO middle" which was the 35 and 28. and I held off these as I like to adapt the 35 M APO on the SL system and felt the 35 SL was a duplication, despite AF.

I've had the APO 50 M since the first weeks when it came out ... so pls. — I know Leica in and out.

And I am also involved in the S4 focus group given I have all the S glass (in product development they identify different user personas, including passionate amateurs, working pro's etc. to identify the key features needed. From my side I strongly suggested they work on colour, adaptability and class-leading S lens target specs).

I am not looking forward to buying the best - I invested in the SL system right when it came end of 2015 (trade-in of my M9 + cash), back then just for adapting M glass and built my Leica collection over a period of almost 20! years which is why it is palatable. As said, I bought my old gen I summilux sometime mid 2000s.

My favorite camera atm is the S3, which I take out 99% of the time because of the rendering of such optics like the 35 2.5 or the 24 Super Elmar.

On the SL APO line – there are some small gripes:

1) Their character can seem overly clinical with low vignetting and perfect sharpness ; the S glass and especially M Summilux line has a smoother bokeh and cinematic rendering; sometimes I miss this when shooting their APO glass

2) The AF is still the weak spot of Leica. Although better with the SL, its still not best-in-class compared to what Sony and Canon push out; you could argue it doesnt matter, but I feel sometimes it could be a bit snappier and am looking forward to seeing what they cook up with the S AF motors in the new S4 glass lineup – remember, AF was never Leica's forte; the S tried hard, the SL even harder, and now let's hope they nail it finally.