MFD 2025 – state of the industry and outlook

[akaru]

Back to 3:2, it bums me out that this seems to be the reality for an IQ5. But, Paul’s question about resolution I can answer a simple: yes. It would be around 200mp, so 25% better.
The one positive is, for those that stitch, 3:2 is less meaningful and would result in greatly increased resolution.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Back to 3:2, it bums me out that this seems to be the reality for an IQ5. But, Paul’s question about resolution I can answer a simple: yes. It would be around 200mp, so 25% better.
The one positive is, for those that stitch, 3:2 is less meaningful and would result in greatly increased resolution.

My question is, and I'd need to see it myself, if the microcontrast of the Rodies is still as crisp on the cropped IQ5 compared to a one shot IQ4 pic with one focal length above. So on the IQ5, the 40 becomes the new 50, etc.

I think yes, ie there is a net gain on a cropped basis for similar FoV, but the proof will be in the files.

Also questions remain re SK compatibility and color cast, etc.

In any case, we'll know soon enough. In a few weeks, possibly!

 

[ThdeDude]

... we'll know soon enough. In a few weeks, possibly!

Weeks?

Not sure I can take so much excitement right now!

 

[SrMphoto]

I have always been curious about shooting with a technical camera. As an owner of CFV100, I have a path to ease into technical camera ecosystem before deciding to go to P1. I am very curious about Rodenstock lenses. My main interest is landscapes where tilt and shift can be useful.

 

[stevev]

Here is my MFD wish for Santa for 2025.

Given the way that sensor tech is reaching something of a plateau, and some high end camera makers are selling "significantly less" than last year, I think that there is room for some innovative thinking...

For example, why not take the same Sony sensor that comes in 36x24mm, 44x33mm and larger sizes and fabricate a new format for panorama enthusiasts?
Like a format equivalent to two of my fpL 60MP sensors side by side i.e. 72mm x 24mm? (Or even larger at 84mm x 28mm).
Those sizes are just under and over, respectively, a quarter of the usable area of 617 film yet produce similar or better resolution than a 617 negative scanned at 3200dpi.
Maybe Sony could make a small run of them and offer it to the market. Or one camera maker could pay for exclusive rights to the sensor.

License an older (SK?) lens design and offer either a fixed 60mm lens or several interchangeable lenses with the appropriate image circle sizes and sell the camera as a MFD panoramic camera. No more shifting to get my panoramas!!! I would jump at that and sell everything to get it.

What about square sensors 36x36mm or 44x44mm? I know it has been talked about, but has that ever tried? No need for a grip.

My point is simply that the camera market - generally - is a little stagnant and in need of revolutionary, not evolutionary designs, to get us all paying attention, and spending, once again.

...and happy new year to all

 

[Jon Warwick]

Well you could sell all your color handheld Leica and Fujis and buy the S4 and an M12 Mono down the road. The S4 at one point will also most likely have adapters for all the Fuji glass as its focal flange distance will be extremely low.

That way you have less and more!

it would be interesting if the GF lenses became compatible on an S4 - I’m thinking here especially about the very good T/S lenses that Fuji recently launched. It would be wonderful if one could ever use those T/S lenses on a Leica body when needed for architecture etc

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think Fotodiox and Kipon will step in. With the release of the S adapter on the GFX Kipon truly is breaking new ground with a smart microchip based adapter.

I just know that SL lenses will be compatible from a 100% source, although it most certianly means FFD is lower than the one of the SL, it could also be a sort of recessed adapter solution; but my bets are on the fact that Leica actually is aware of the FFD implications and how successful GFX became just because of the adaptability it provides.

So it'll take a while till we see third party unlicensed AF adapters, but it will for sure at one point be possible if the FFD is below 20mm, which I think it will be. Nikon Z showed that 16ish is possible, so nothing speaks against say a 15mm Leica S4 mount.

The other thing I am super hyped aobut is AF Summiluxes ... they're also aware that Techart makes AF adapters so it is a bit weird to not have that in the Leicaverse - so funnily enough you'll end up with a situation that the S4 is the best "non digital back" digital back sort of with crazy cool features like AF Summiluxes, Noctiluxes with inbuilt lens corrections given its Leica native ... sth other systems don't have, even with smart adapters.

The S4 will still not equate what you can get with Rodie HR, SK late-gen on Alpa with IQ5, but it will be a fantastic main walkaround system with the big gun so to say for the large fine art or more meditative "making an image" outings. Especially tilt is sth you still will need the Alpa for, so there's room for both.

And short FFD means also higher compatbility with tech cam bodies ...

 

[ThdeDude]

... fabricate a new format for panorama enthusiasts? ...

What I have heard, low-volume, custom-sized chips are mega $$$. I don't think there is a scope aspect ratio (2.39:1) movie sensor currently available. (And little inventive for such because of the established use of anamorphic lenses.)

But I think an in-camera panorama function would go a long way for panorama enthusiasts. We have that on the iPhone, and, IMHO, it works very well here.

 

[ThdeDude]

... What about square sensors 36x36mm or 44x44mm? ...

Or even an oversized circular sensor so we could freely select the (rectangular) aspect ratio within the cone of lens coverage, and this individually for each lens. (Either at exposure or post)

But I presume, cost of sensor manufacture (manufacturing yield) would have to drop by a factor of ten or so.

 

[tenmangu81]

Would you buy a tech cam body if you could reuse all your lenses - e.g. Hassy X with aperture control?

Not sure.... as I'd need to take a tripod, set it up, adjust the T/S, and so on. Actually, after a deep and long thought, I realized it is not my way of taking pictures. I always have my camera with me (most often with only one lens) and shoot depending upon my inspiration/view of a scene. I never go for a photographic walk to a place I have previously chosen, I rather walk anywhere and take pictures where I am. A tripod is heavy (for my age...) and I don't want to spend a long time adjusting all the gear. The scene that inspired me could have disappeared before I set it up all !

 

[cunim]

I think Fotodiox and Kipon will step in. With the release of the S adapter on the GFX Kipon truly is breaking new ground with a smart microchip based adapter.

Don't know about Fotodiox, but the Kipon Phase/Mamiya GFX adapter is trash. Flare, flare, flare. It would take s a pretty charming adapter to keep the level of quality I would expect from an S camera.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Don't know about Fotodiox, but the Kipon Phase/Mamiya GFX adapter is trash. Flare, flare, flare. It would take s a pretty charming adapter to keep the level of quality I would expect from an S camera.

You mean it has light leaks or no internal black paint?

 

[ThdeDude]

Don't know about Fotodiox, but the Kipon Phase/Mamiya GFX adapter is trash. Flare, flare, flare. It would take s a pretty charming adapter to keep the level of quality I would expect from an S camera.

Just seen from a pure mechanical point of view, an adapter introduces two additional, potentially weak points/interfaces (camera/adapter, adapter/lens).

I would not be surprised if any new camera from Leica or new digital back from P1 will use lens information, transmitted via electronic connections, to perform some corrections to the image. Not sure how this would work if there would be a third-party adapter inbetween.

 

[ThdeDude]

<61MP sensor 36 X 24mm (3:2) 864m2 Factor: 1

51/100MP sensor 43.8 x 32.9mm (4:3) 1444m2 Factor: 1.6

247MP sensor 53.96mm x 35.97mm (3:2) 1931m2 Factor: 2.2

100/150MP sensor 53.7 x 40.4mm (4:3) 2169m2 Factor: 2.5

It's an established principle of psychophysics that have to double something to get a feeling of it really being different.

If one makes the assumption here that that "something" is image area then even the smaller 247MP sensor should still feel different than 35mm since having more than double the image area of 35mm. In contrast, 44x33 should (and does) feel more like an oversized 35mm.

 

[dougpeterson]

It's an established principle of psychophysics that have to double something to get a feeling of it really being different.

If one makes the assumption here that that "something" is image area then even the smaller 247MP sensor should still feel different than 35mm since having more than double the image area of 35mm. In contrast, 44x33 should (and does) feel more like an oversized 35mm.

Feels a bit pseudosciencey to me. The underlying science is real that some psychological effects respond in non linear ways. But that doesn’t mean all effects are like this.

Do you personally only notice a meaningful change in lens focal length when it doubles or halves from another lens? I don’t. 20-30% change in focal length is pretty meaningful to me.

Of course I’m biased. Just saying I don’t think that’s more than a crude rule of thumb. I think the amount of impact/value of a change in resolution is probably a lot more dependent on whether a given use case has more than enough already - in which case it matters very little, or has not enough - in which case it matters a great deal.

In others more of a threshold function than a dose-response curve.

 

[mristuccia]

If we really want to venture into this line of thinking, in engineering it is often said that only a change of an order of magnitude (10x) produces a really meaningful step-up in accuracy, performances, etc....
So, let's talk about 4x5'' then.

 

[ThdeDude]

Feels a bit pseudosciencey to me. The underlying science is real that some psychological effects respond in non linear ways. But that doesn’t mean all effects are like this.

Yes, it's a bit of a soft science. One author even made the argument that for photography, that "something" is not area, but linear dimensions. (I should have mentioned this in my original posting!)

Can be easily seen, for example, in looking at the diagonals of common film formats:
- 43mm Miniature format (35mm)
- 85mm Medium format (6x6)
- 162mm "Small" large format (4x5")
- 325mm "Medium" large format (8x10"),and
- 650mm "Ultra" large format (16x20")

Interestingly Fujifilm:
- 30mm APS-C (25.1×16.7mm) Fujifilm X series
- 55mm 44x33 Fujifilm GFX series

The diagonals between 35mm (43mm) and Type 4.2 (66.7mm) differ merely by a factor of 1.5!

 

[PeterA]

Fuji and Hasselblad revitalised MF by making cameras that people can use and more people afford - I was laughed at years ago in the silly Luminous Lndscape forum when I stated that MF is for wealthy amateurs and it is dyinhg market anyway - photographers arent business people.

Leica can make and sell anything they like - but the M11 for me was a fail - which is why I sold it and swithced to an M10M for monocrome work. Teh SL3 V SL2 - yeah nahhh - the move from 50 to 60 megapixels didnt shift the curve and teh 35mm files compared to Hasselblad arent competitive anyway.

No for me these days - Im happy with what I have and more interewsted in learning new things with video - the tech in that is far more advanced far more interesting and far more rewarding investment in time.

Peopel might laugh on here - but I added a polaroid instant film printer to my kit and can print photos instantly and hand them to family and friends - what fun.

I think the real secret that camera companies have to learn - is to make things fun for people and easy to use - this means see photo make photo share phot - seemlesly. Any smart phone can do this as a matter of course.

Googles latest announcements are also going to revolutonise the creative possibilities for peopel who use cameras and video - to try and make a buck - that is where the exciting creative possibilities are to be found not in iteration number 50 of a clunky back matched to overpriced glass that cant perform any better than Chinese stuff made with teh latest designa and manufacturing techniologies.


Nothing wrong with niche products tailored to a very small audoience priced at ridiculous levels theough - plenty of dying industries are clinging to that business model as long as teh company is privately owned and doesnt have to bend the kneee to some idiot PE firm re achieving impossible growth and profit numbers - small niche companies can survive.

 

[ThdeDude]

Do you personally only notice a meaningful change in lens focal length when it doubles or halves from another lens? I don’t. 20-30% change in focal length is pretty meaningful to me.
...

For my 4x5" camera kit, I had my focal length spaced by a factor 1.5, i.e. 50%.

I felt this being conceptionally equivalent to having one large zoom lens. In many ways I think that a 1.5 spacing is the perfect spacing between prime lenses for a general camera kit. Unfortunately, with digital there aren't so many lenses available. Digaron-S has, on average, a 1.7 spacing.

- Schneider 38mm ƒ/5.6 Super-Angulon XL
- Schneider 58mm ƒ/5.6 Super-Angulon XL
- Nikon 90mm ƒ/8 Nikkor SW
- Rodenstock 135mm ƒ/5.6 APO-Sironar-S
- Nikon 200mm ƒ/8 Nikkor-M
- Schneider 305mm ƒ/9 G-Claron
- Fuji 450mm ƒ/12.5 Fujinon-C
- Nikon 720mm ƒ/16 Nikkor-T ED

 

[SrMphoto]

For my 4x5" camera kit, I had my focal length spaced by a factor 1.5, i.e. 50%.

50% focal length difference is much more at wide than at long end. Maybe one should use a factor for angle instead of focal length.

I felt this being conceptionally equivalent to having one large zoom lens. In many ways I think that a 1.5 spacing is the perfect spacing between prime lenses for a general camera kit. Unfortunately, with digital there aren't so many lenses available. Digaron-S has, on average, a 1.7 spacing.

- Schneider 38mm ƒ/5.6 Super-Angulon XL
- Schneider 58mm ƒ/5.6 Super-Angulon XL
- Nikon 90mm ƒ/8 Nikkor SW
- Rodenstock 135mm ƒ/5.6 APO-Sironar-S
- Nikon 200mm ƒ/8 Nikkor-M
- Schneider 305mm ƒ/9 G-Claron
- Fuji 450mm ƒ/12.5 Fujinon-C
- Nikon 720mm ƒ/16 Nikkor-T ED