So, who is buying a Alpa these days?

[Paul Spinnler]

From their 1999 webpage - the recent history of Alpa:

1979	In that year the ALPA Roto SM60/70 appeared, a unique 360° panoramic camera. The famous Swiss photographer Emil Schulthess and the technical designer Hermann Seitz, each played major roles in its development. Today, the Seitz Roundshot is the leading instrument of its kind worldwide. Seitz Phototechnik AG, Lustdorf/Switzerland, also designs and produces the new ALPA 12WA wide angle medium format camera.
The 80s	The model 11si of 1976 marked the technological apex as well as the end-point of the ALPA 24x36mm SLR development. While the ALPA 11si gold (18 carat gold plated, 10 micron layer) offered in the 1980s for somewhat less than US$ 7,000 may have delighted some collectors of exquisite luxuries, a refinement of photographic technology it was not. The production of ALPA 11si cameras fell throughout the 1980s to reach a low of 4 to 5 per month. At the same time, Pignons was developing such exotic products as a special camera for identity cards on behalf of the Zaïre government. Work also continued somewhat haphazardly on a new 24x36mm SLR model for which drawings, tools and even prototypes are said to have been made. The whereabouts of this material today is as unclear as that of many other parts and semifinished goods made by Pignons at that time. A film transport motor of considerable technical ingenuity and interest is reported to have reached an advanced stage of development. A new vertical-travel metal blade focal plane shutter was under development that is rumoured to have been a brilliant feat of engineering. Some of these developments are said to have been sold to Far Eastern buyers.
1990	On 14th August 1990, bankruptcy proceedings were instituted against Pignons SA at Ballaigues. The official receiver moved in to administer the remaining assets. How and why did one of the world's most distinguished cameras reach such a low point? Remark 1: it is easy to be wise after the event. Remark 2: similar comments to those we are about to make below may be made about a number of well-known camera manufacturers. We feel that the reasons behind the decline and fall of ALPA's original owners are primarily the following: Lack of interest in the product and lack of personal engagement by the producer's decision-makers. The company did not concentrate on its core business but spread itself over too many other activities. Its core business was the design and manufacture of high-quality, hand-crafted cameras for a small but demanding circle of connoisseurs. In other words: ALPA. The ALPA cameras produced in the 1980s did not match the spirit of the decade. Today, on the other hand, we are witnessing a veritable renaissance of classical mechanics at the highest level of quality. There is no disputing the advantages and convenience of automated functions for some photographic purposes, e.g. in action-photography where speed and reaction time is everything. Nevertheless, more and more sensitive photographers realize: That the enjoyment of their art and profession is in growing danger of being buried under an avalanche of ever more automated gizmos, multi functional buttons with displays fore and aft, the whole show being run by current-guzzling and often far-from-quiet electric motors That in photography genuine quality only very rarely comes from automatic processes That in camera technology simplicity and reliability often correlate closely
1990-96	Why did the simple bankruptcy case of Pignons SA take six years to reach a conclusion? We (Capaul & Weber) have tried since December 1990 to purchase ALPA and succeeded only in 1996. We still do not know why it took so long. Well-informed sources do not lay the blame entirely on the overworked official receiver's office. Instead, they hint at the peculiar social, economic, political and even religious complexities of this rather remote corner of French-speaking Switzerland.
1996	On 29th February 1996 Capaul & Weber, Zürich/Switzerland, purchased from the official receiver under a "vente aux enchères privée" the worldwide rights to the brand name ALPA. Already at the Photokina in the autumn of 1996 the first prototypes of the ALPA 12 were presented to the public. They were the result of a close cooperation between Capaul & Weber with Seitz Phototechnik AG, Lustdorf/Switzerland. At the ALPA stand at Cologne as much as in the international specialised press, these prototypes of the first ALPA for the medium format were the target of lively interest:
	FOTOGRAFARE (Italy), November 1996, p. 76/77: "...The manufacturing is done largely by hand with the precision for which Swiss watchmakers are renowned. Each component is engineered for utmost robustness..." POPULAR PHOTOGRAPHY (USA), December 1996, p.38/42 "... Capaul & Weber, the visionary duo that resurrected the prestigious ALPA name after the original company went bankrupt. They have succeeded in producing, at least in prototype, a camera that is as defiantly and eccentrically Swiss as the long line of legendary ALPA 35mm SLRs..." "... Who on earth would spend over $ 6,000 (without lens!) to acquire such a machine? Connoisseurs of fine machinery for one. The ALPA 12 we examined is very much a tool-maker's camera that is literally handmade. Like ALPAs of yore, its body castings are beautiful - and strong enough to hammer nails! The internal gearing" .... "is absolutely gorgeous, and the robust, beautifully finished film insert that goes into the hinged back makes other inserts look flimsy in comparison. When you shut the back briskly, it makes a 'chunk' reminiscent of the sound of a Rolls-Royce motorcar door being closed..." PHOTODEAL (Germany), January/February/March 1997, p. 4/5 "... One of the few genuinely new cameras at the last Photokina was no doubt the ALPA 12 which attracted a great deal of interest. For one, this would have been because of the reputation that this extraordinary brand has always enjoyed. The name ALPA galvanizes collectors of cameras throughout the world - today more than ever. For another, the excited response could also have been due to the concept of this camera which, in many ways, is unique..." PHOTO TECHNIK INTERNATIONAL (Germany), March/April 1997, p. 42/43 "... The novelty that created one of the biggest stirs was the ALPA - and this when the product was not even complete. The name - well known among connoisseurs - and the unabashedly elitist construction were enough to attract attention. A medium format camera reduced to the essentials of technology and design with the use of high-end materials is their (Capaul & Weber's) vision: 'Things are Simple at the Top' is their internationally unambiguous slogan..." These and countless other reactions to the rebirth of ALPA were overwhelmingly positive and most convincing. We, in cooperation with Seitz Phototechnik AG, Lustdorf/Switzerland, have turned the suggestions and wishes that have been made regarding the ALPA 12 prototypes into reality. The result of all these changes are two production models rather different from the original prototypes:

 

[wattsy]

I am attracted to the obvious quality of the ALPA gear because I like nice stuff that has traditional mechanical functionality but I don't have a burning need for tilt or shift capability and I know that, realistically, my photographs will not be any better.

What puts me off the brand is that, whenever I have browsed the internet to look at what is available, there never seems to be any stock available. I also think the ALPA website is deeply unimpressive (looks like something cobbled together in the late 90s) and is only mildly informative. In short, I would be concerned that buying into ALPA now might be buying into a moribund system.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I am attracted to the obvious quality of the ALPA gear because I like nice stuff that has traditional mechanical functionality but I don't have a burning need for tilt or shift capability and I know that, realistically, my photographs will not be any better.

What puts me off the brand is that, whenever I have browsed the internet to look at what is available, there never seems to be any stock available. I also think the ALPA website is deeply unimpressive (looks like something cobbled together in the late 90s) and is only mildly informative. In short, I would be concerned that buying into ALPA now might be buying into a moribund system.

What do you mean with stock?

It is a high-end product made in small batches - you need to wait a few days to get new things, but tha's not unusual?

The webpage - I agree - is not ideal. It was an ADHD like adventure by the former head or product Andre Oldani who created a super messy monster of a website although the old one was ok.

On the other hand – its not one needs to go there every day.

 

[jotloob]

ALPA
An exceptional company with an exceptional website . Never liked it , but got used to handle it .

 

[wattsy]

What do you mean with stock?

It is a high-end product made in small batches - you need to wait a few days to get new things, but tha's not unusual?

The webpage - I agree - is not ideal. It was an ADHD like adventure by the former head or product Andre Oldani who created a super messy monster of a website although the old one was ok.

On the other hand – its not one needs to go there every day.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to defend ALPA so vigorously, Paul, I'm just saying how I perceive the brand. It doesn't really require a rebuttal from you.

I know modern marketing is a shallow business but I expect better nowadays from a high-end brand. The website looks cheap.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I'm not sure why you feel the need to defend ALPA so vigorously, Paul, I'm just saying how I perceive the brand. It doesn't really require a rebuttal from you.

I know modern marketing is a shallow business but I expect better nowadays from a high-end brand. The website looks cheap.

Its a genuine question when you mention stock levels as offputting and I feel it warrants clarification also for other interested buyers that it is a bespoke camera manufacturer, meaning you order and then it takes a few days especially for lenses to be available as every lens is ordered on demand and tested before sale. Its precisely not Fuji or Hasselblad where you click buy on a website. Bodies usually are in stock. Its just for lenses and especially specific combos, like X-shutter mounted ones, etc. where it may take a few days.

Resellers are looking after their cash in general and if something is not selling fast - like a new Fuji - they won’t stock it to avoid bound capital. It’s quite normal these days to not walk into fully stocked camera shops in terms of specialty equipment. Even Leica stores don’t stock the S3 (when still in production) and you could rarely find the S glass lineup in full in a given Leica shop.

I've had my 138 HR returned to Rodenstock by Alpa because they felt it was not optically and cosmetically perfect - they received it and tested it across the Alpa Pano camera and there were some tiny issues, but they sent it back to make sure I got a perfect copy in the end.

If you spend that amount of money on glass, it is actually comforting that every lens needs to pass a rigorous second step QC test at their HQ before its being handed over to the customer and given the amounts of money involved, its quite understandable that their items are not stock items, but available for order.

But its fair - for some a compact Hasselblad camera is the perfect tool, which is totally fine and these are ofc readily available.

 

[UliM.]

to go back to the title of the thread: "who buys an Alpa these days?"
At least it can be said that no one, not even in this special community, has announced their intention to purchase an Alpa now or in future

It is certainly largely undisputed that the precision and workmanship quality is top notch, but so is the exclusivity and the price.
I wrestled with myself for a long time; when I switched from Cambo to Arca R, it wasn't clear to me whether it was "better" to choose Alpa. One reason for Arca R was the better availability of lenses and accessories (esp. used market), the choice between rail cameras (M-Line, Universalis, etc., and the RM3di. Nowadays there is also the Pico, another compact option. Annoying for me while using Arca Rm3di: only geared movements (slower process) and the mounting mechanism (if you turn the lens counterclockwise, you sometimes do not losen the bayonett mount at the camera but the one of the spacer rings or the front elemnet of the lens, depending where you grab the lens)....anybody similar experiences?
And yes, I know that using the "Arca factum", there are no geared movements, just a sliding mechanism but only one axis.

Choosing Alpa, there are “only” cameras with the same technical (high end) design principle.
Regarding Arca, there is also the advantage of having a wide range of focal lengths available and mountable thanks to the different camera models (especially telephoto lenses for cameras with rails and bellows).
However, these are all unemotional, practical and rational reasons, Alpa certainly has a lot of emotional appeal for some of us (me included). Like the Leica M (which I also own and prefer to use whenever it makes sense). Others shake their heads and wave away when it comes to Leica M... So everyone as they like it, as they can afford it, as it makes technical sense.
- Life is short, buy & use what you can afford -
Best, Uli

 

[Paul Spinnler]

to go back to the title of the thread: "who buys an Alpa these days?"
At least it can be said that no one, not even in this special community, has announced their intention to purchase an Alpa now or in future

It is certainly largely undisputed that the precision and workmanship quality is top notch, but so is the exclusivity and the price.
I wrestled with myself for a long time; when I switched from Cambo to Arca R, it wasn't clear to me whether it was "better" to choose Alpa. One reason for Arca R was the better availability of lenses and accessories (esp. used market), the choice between rail cameras (M-Line, Universalis, etc., and the RM3di. Nowadays there is also the Pico, another compact option. Annoying for me while using Arca Rm3di: only geared movements (slower process) and the mounting mechanism (if you turn the lens counterclockwise, you sometimes do not losen the bayonett mount at the camera but the one of the spacer rings or the front elemnet of the lens, depending where you grab the lens)....anybody similar experiences?
And yes, I know that using the "Arca factum", there are no geared movements, just a sliding mechanism but only one axis.

Choosing Alpa, there are “only” cameras with the same technical (high end) design principle.
Regarding Arca, there is also the advantage of having a wide range of focal lengths available and mountable thanks to the different camera models (especially telephoto lenses for cameras with rails and bellows).
However, these are all unemotional, practical and rational reasons, Alpa certainly has a lot of emotional appeal for some of us (me included). Like the Leica M (which I also own and prefer to use whenever it makes sense). Others shake their heads and wave away when it comes to Leica M... So everyone as they like it, as they can afford it, as it makes technical sense.
- Life is short, buy & use what you can afford -
Best, Uli

Uli

You need to factor in that most Alpa owners have been Alpa owners for a long time. There's not a lot of innovation in tech camera land with many products already very good as they are. Also the used market is less liquid because people keep their Alpa things.

When you buy an Alpa Max in 2012 - it still works perfectly in 2024. That's the crazy thing. Its like a Leica M6, so to say.

One reason besides initial outlay and secondary market why people might not buy an Alpa is because simply they can't try one as the distribution is less broad than the one of Cambo, say. The experiences from their workshops actually shows that a lot of people fall in love and then order one.

That's the problem - an internet browsing experience is a bad representation of the look and feel in practice.

I personally find the Cambo cameras not so aesthetically pleasing and AS is great for analog / digital hybrid shooters, but the system has some drawbacks relating to the lens mounting and geared only approach.

You are right, in the end everyone should just buy what they can afford and its clear that the low liquidity of used items for Alpa plays a role for new entrants.

To such prospects I can only say: try at least to play around with one at a workshop.

BR

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think the question should be more: who is buying tech cams nowadays instead of just Alpa; although the price is a problem for newbies, it is also generally so that tech cams are very niche and less en vogue than 10y ago due to good alternatives.

Personally speaking, the joy of a tech cam cannot be replaced by a smaller mirrorless camera for me - its complementary.

 

[John_McMaster]

Looking from the outside (Leica S user), the body (any brand) is the cheapest out of new lens or IQ4150....

john

 

[darr]

If I could justify it, I would buy an ALPA Pano!

 

[akaru]

If I could justify it, I would buy an ALPA Pano!

Worth it, though I got mine used at about half of retail. If they’d make one with 15-20mm rise I’d make it my default.

 

[darr]

Worth it, though I got mine used at about half of retail. If they’d make one with 15-20mm rise I’d make it my default.

Lucky you! Where did you find one secondhand?

 

[akaru]

Lucky you! Where did you find one secondhand?

Found through Fotohaus Basel.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I bargained the special option to be first in line if ever there's a new Pano There's also limited edition golden tripod mounts, did you see them?

There are gaps in Alpa's portfolio and some things I never understood, except by the design of Andre Oldani - the former head of product who now left the industry - to make sure the portfolio doesnt cannibalize itself (which I think is an unfounded fear):

1) Plus: Asymmetric would have been nice: 15 down and 25 up and 22.5 left and right; it is in my view ok to have different up and down while keeping sides the same as you rarely need as much fall as you need rise; 22.5 would be nice vs. Max.

2) TC+ -> A TC with 12-15mm rise option, very compact build

3) Plus mini: 12 left right, 20 up, 5 down -> no compromise on rise and 12 left and right and 5 down should make it a lot more compact, even more compact than MAX.

4) Pano MK II: change to 5 down 20 up

I think the reason why Pano and Plus were designed re shift movements as they are was out of fear of cannibalizing Max, etc. but in my view that's unfounded.

I especiallly would be looking forward to a TC+ and Pano MK II.

I guess that's a bit the point about Alpa - you end up collecting their bodies

The optical EVF is amazing, unfortunately currently not available - what's cool is to etch different focal lengths into one overlay, ie 40,50,70,90,180.

All the big Düsseldorf School peeps use the MAX btw with the 90 HR SW as the main uber sharp short tele, as does Mark Power, including the Roll Film back for occasional 6x9.

 

[jotloob]

Also to mention the ALPA 12 PLUS .

20mm shift LEFT/RIGHT and 20mm UP/DOWN . This allows you only smaller PANOS but for me thats ok .

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Also to mention the ALPA 12 PLUS .

20mm shift LEFT/RIGHT and 20mm UP/DOWN . This allows you only smaller PANOS but for me thats ok .

My point was the Plus is a wasted opportunity:

1) Max already covers 25 up and 18 left right - to add 2mm left right and remove five up is too little differentiation
2) Plus should have been made a tad wider and with asymettric rise and fall - symmetry for symmetry's sake is not useful as in practice you need more ofteh rise than fall. Even 25/15 would have been better than 20, 20.

You only only need 20/20 if you'd often use fall to 20mm -> but where is this needed in practice except if you want to do square panoramas out of the middle section of a high rise say in downtown Chicago or if your main business is panos of the Grand Canyon.

So in my view a clear missed opportunity to make it more distinguished from the rest of the lineup.

Four-way symmetry is useless for tech cams.

 

[Ben730]

I would always have liked to buy an Alpa. First of all, they are beautiful and as a Swiss, I always like to support precision products from little Switzerland.
However, when I bought my Cambo WRS in 2009, the decision was very easy.
I already had a Cambo Ultima (from Sinar, also Swiss, exchanged) and was very happy with it.
At that time, Alpa had nothing comparable to offer. Everything was possible, but you needed additional adapters and time to convert everything.
The spirit level and flash shoe had to be purchased separately at absurd prices. The tripod mount with extension was annoying.
Somehow everything seemed too complicated.
Unfortunately, there was also no salesperson in my region who could present the product appropriately with the necessary expertise.
The woodhead who showed me the Alpas back then didn't know how to put everything together. It was an extremely embarrassing moment.

Cambo already had an expert dealer with an uncomplicated test rental service for me back then.
The camera needed no instructions. Everything was installed or attached, everything was clear.
20 mm horizontal and 25/15 mm vertical shift from the back (the lens stays in place).
1 kg weight.
With a height of 165 mm including the tripod mount, the camera fits into my camera backpack without having to be dismantled - unpack it, take a photo.
To save time or in difficult conditions (dust, rain etc.) I can stitch in all directions instead of changing the lens.

Is there now an Alpa camera that fulfills these three (underlined) requirements?
I've tried to find out on their website, but it's actually a bit cumbersome...

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I'd not be hesitant to call Alpa "Lego for adults", its true, if someone has no clue about the product it won't sell easily, which is why they're having success with their workshops. Its also true that everything costs, but then again, I've bought everything many moons ago, so it doesn't matter in the bigger scheme as its one-off.

Its really cool once you realize that you can attach the grips and different adapters anywhere on the camera, including shading accessories!

In terms of your requirments the Alpa Max is the closest:

25/18 up and down and 18 left and right.

The 18mm has a reason btw: when shifting a sensor in vertical position this is the maximum you would go for a two shot shift as you'd want 4mm overlap for stitching in Photoshop = 2x18mm = 36mm vs. 40mm sensor width leaving 4mm stitch.

The 20mm was deemed as unnecessary as it requires you to do a three-way stitch vertically and because most stitching is done with the sensor vertically rather than horizontally.

If you stitch horizontally you typically also don't need 20mm as the lens selection to gover a 54mm sensor shifted left right is essentially 60XL, 90 HR SW, 138 HR SW so a bit limited, maybe you can use the 70 HR with SB at the back too.

So the complexity of the system and the price point ofc is a hindrance, but then again if you have 20 years to study a system you'll get the hang of it

In my view the Max fits the bill of most shooters. Its also the workhorse of Mark Power from Magnum, Gursky, Höfer and Struth.

It is also the only one which accepts the rollfilm back from Linhof for Alpa which has a special adapter fitting the Alpa clamps so you have perfect planarity left right.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Looking from the outside (Leica S user), the body (any brand) is the cheapest out of new lens or IQ4150....

john

"The cheap way" to get into Alpa, after you found a body, is to re-mount lenses into their mount. So you can buy a used Cambo or AS Rodie and mount it onto Alpa. Costs sth like 2k or so (depends), but you get a new precise aligned mount, arguably increased market value and if anything is off you'll get notified and you can even replace the shutter for a new Rodie AU.

Is most often more economical than buying list new as Rodenstock has increased prices in recent years.