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So, who is buying a Alpa these days?

jduncan

Active member
Hans Keist: Chinesische Kund:innen, die eine ALPA kaufen, sind meist passionierte Amateurfotograf:innen. Sie gehören zur wohlhabenden Schicht und sind sehr vermögend. Sie kaufen mit einer ALPA vor allem eine Geschichte und ein Statussymbol. Professionelle Fotografierende in Asien kaufen hingegen eher selten unsere Kameras. Aber diese Tendenz gilt tatsächlich auch für den europäischen Markt.

Hans Keist: Chinese customers who buy an ALPA are usually passionate amateur photographers. They belong to the affluent class and are very wealthy. With an ALPA, they are primarily buying a story and a status symbol. Professional photographers in Asia, on the other hand, rarely buy our cameras. But this trend actually also applies to the European market.

I agree more with the facts described by the owner of Alpa than the perceived reality of some users here.
Hi,
I do too. I wonder how different is from other Luxury camera brands, like Phase One, Hasselblad or Leica. We know the trio is used by professionals all the time, including some top pros, but I wonder as a percentage, after all, most Ferarri buyers are not professional race drivers.
Best regards
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Most photographers are not professionals. The amateur market has always carried the rest and financed innovation of camera manufacturers.

95% of Hasselblad or Fuji cameras in use shoot boring family pics, common holiday pics, whatever pics, in fact, I'd assume more so than digital back owners of any kind.

The vast majority of photography out there is amateur, even if shot with 5k, 10k, 40k camera systems.

Tech cams are mostly an older person thing nowadays due to price and the younger generation not knowing it so well, more prone to buy a 35mm cam, a 35mm analog cam or a Fuji or Hassy.
 

akaru

Active member
I wonder how accurate a poll would be for age of users here with tech cams. I assume it’s an older set, too, but wonder about the reality.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Hi,
I do too. I wonder how different is from other Luxury camera brands, like Phase One, Hasselblad or Leica. We know the trio is used by professionals all the time, including some top pros, but I wonder as a percentage, after all, most Ferarri buyers are not professional race drivers.
Best regards

Your 95% number is way high.

Though it is true that majority of photographers are not working professionals. This has always been the case, even for medium format back in the analog days. Today a bit more true than ever, given the advances of 35mm and APS-C. But much more so for Hasselblad than for Fuji GFX.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
I wonder how accurate a poll would be for age of users here with tech cams. I assume it’s an older set, too, but wonder about the reality.
im 41, but regardless of age, am yet to meet a photog in real life that knows what Alpa is.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Amateur doesnt mean bad; it means you don't try to make money with it professionally, meaning searching for jobs and writing invoices etc.
 
I mean specifically over time, the geared shift mechanism becomes sticky, at least on the Arca system. Over time, you need to get it re-lubed and checked.

I have an XT, and the rotating system is not that practical because you can't tilt anymore with XT glass in vertical sensor orientation. That's a fundamental design flaw and not to be underestimated as a nuisance. Essentially, if you want it in portrait mode or do a two-way stitch in portrait mode, you lose tilt on XT glass, as it becomes swing.

Also, the recorded metadata is nice, but with Alpa cameras, you can add detents at 5mm increments and a stitching detent at 18mm, which is the ideal position for a two-way flat stitch with a 4mm overlap on the short end of the sensor. For example, if you do stitching or just shift, you can save LCC and distortion correction presets in C1 for say 10mm rise, 15mm rise of 18mm shift left and right with 10mm rise, etc.; so the benefit of the metadata is negated + you can save real LCC presets correcting for magenta cast while the XT only correct distortion automatically and vignetting. Detents are also more precise for repeatability compared to free geared movements.

Regarding the construction solidity of the Cambo XT: sometimes it sags a bit with the digital back. And with the lens metadata, I get a -1 x value, even though it should be dialed in without rise and fall. That's something that would never happen with an Alpa – you'll see this if you own one, regarding stiffness and solidity of the construction.

The geared knob movement in the Arca is super annoying once you've experienced the quick shift of the Alpa on the inner bearing rails with detents. They have a nice tactile feel, making it super fast to dial in. It’s also annoying with the XT compared to rails, which are blazing fast.

I fully agree with @akaru on the fact that you don’t have back adapters, which increases the risk of scratching the sensor. I once switched in the field between an Alpa TC and the XT and precisely scratched the bottom part of the back lightly, just below the sensor. It’s not a major problem, but I got lucky.

Finally, the Alpa system has other nifty tricks up its sleeve. Besides the symmetric construction, which lets you test lens symmetry as you mentioned, you can move the tilt spacers between the front and back because everything is symmetric, including the front and back adapters. Having back tilt allows you to correct perspective in architectural photography in a complementary way than just front rise.

It’s an advanced technique mostly used in larger view cameras, but the Alpa lets you do it, and to me, that’s a fundamental advantage. Besides, you can stack tilt adapters and use them in any combination for double back or front tilt, or a mix of tilt and swing in any direction. That’s hard to beat. Back tilt also allows you to work more in the sweet spot of the lens.

Lastly, add to that some other ecosystem benefits, such as:
  1. The Linhof Alpa roll film back with a custom Alpa direct adapter connection, meaning extremely flat film (within the Linhof rollfilm back) and planar alignment of the film plane to the lenses no matter what (because of the integrated Alpa back interface), which results in ultra-high-quality, sharp 6x9 negatives with Rodie HR-W glass every time (with Arca Horseman, I sometimes have film planarity issues, leading to slight unsharpness in one corner);
  2. Shimmable back adapters for total calibration of your lens-back system;
  3. The guarantee that all lenses are double-tested before sale at Alpa, on top of the Rodenstock QC, meaning they really are perfect;
  4. The TC and Pano, which are unique - its nice to have the TC option for impromptu lightweight outings.
On lens availability: It’s true that the 43XL and 60XL, as well as the 28XL and 120 ASPH, are nearly impossible to find, with the former having hit price points of 10k plus, so if you are dead set on these, it’s a problem.

On the other hand, a modern architectural photography kit comprised of the 32HR + 50HR + 90HR + 180HR is absolutely brilliant.

If you have the cash, it's the best system in my opinion.

Did I mention that you can screw on a shade clamp onto the top or side of the camera for ultimate flare control in the field?

Lastly - Alpa looks and feels awesome, Cambo always felt cheap to me and I never liked the look of their products – it may not matter, but with Alpa I always am happy to use it and take it in hand; difficult to describe; a bit like an Apple Macbook vs. an Asus Laptop.
funny that this could devolve into a Mac vs PC argument. I just thought I'd offer some thoughts, practical things especially for people researching getting into MF technical cameras. As I mentioned having the cash isn't the key issue for me, there are multiple factors at play and I don't think any on system is the best. I'm not a collector, I'm a photographer.

On the subject of back tilt which is really a LF thing, (which you can do on the Cambo too with certain lenses and the back tilt spacer) you angle the camera up, tilt the back to be in plane for correct verticals and then tilt the front to the same angle to get the focus plane where you need it: net result is the same as rear fall — maybe more than you could achieve on a technical camera but then outside of the limitations of a lot of lenses IC on a technical camera in the digital world. You would more likely use rear swing to change the horizontal shape of the building, for better or worse.
 

jduncan

Active member
Most photographers are not professionals. The amateur market has always carried the rest and financed innovation of camera manufacturers.

95% of Hasselblad or Fuji cameras in use shoot boring family pics, common holiday pics, whatever pics, in fact, I'd assume more so than digital back owners of any kind.

The vast majority of photography out there is amateur, even if shot with 5k, 10k, 40k camera systems.

Tech cams are mostly an older person thing nowadays due to price and the younger generation not knowing it so well, more prone to buy a 35mm cam, a 35mm analog cam or a Fuji or Hassy.
Do you have any data to support the 95% statistic, or is it more of a random claim? A link would be helpful. I’m not disputing the figure or finding it unlikely. Maybe it’s just a generational difference; when I was younger, men didn’t speak so freely about things.

Regardless, I wouldn’t be surprised if the same applies to Phase One, Canon, Nikon, and Sony. Successful digital camera manufacturers are likely to sell more to amateurs and hobbyists than professionals. Digital cameras are a capital-intensive business, and without sufficient funds, stagnation and decline are inevitable.

The technical camera market is not so capital intensive, but it does require paying your personnel, marketing, machine maintenance, business and manufacturing space, warranty costs etc.
Today most lenses are low distortion and we have the classic 35mm T/S, that are beyond good enough. Some professionals will buy the camera, but most will not (they are trying to make money).

Some people doing art for themselves will say, good enough is not what I want, and others, professionals or not, want to change gears to push themselves to a creative mindset. Others just want a luxury item to show off.

As I’ve said before, most Ferrari or Lamborghini buyers aren’t professional race drivers.

Best regards,
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
It is not a random claim. First, there's also no clear distinction between amateurs with smartphones or without, but let's put these away.

The US Bureau of Labour statistics estimates around 60k professional photographers, I've also seen statistics of around 100k at one point.


According to CIPA (Camera & Imaging Products Association), worldwide ILC shipments (interchangeable lens camera) for 2023, based on the data provided below, sum up to 9,638,752.

1729003975484.jpeg

The U.S. typically represents around 20-25% of global camera sales, which suggests that around 1.5-2 million cameras are sold annually in the U.S. in recent years.

Assuming 5 years avg. lifespan per camera you are quickly at directionally 10m non smartphone cameras in use in the US.

Contrast that with let's say 100k pros and you are at 1%.

You can now play around with the numbers, assume 5m cameras and 80 pro photographers, etc. but no matter how you slice it the vast majority of ILC cameras in use are used by amateurs.

Professional photography as a profession is a super rough job to make a decent living off of.

If anything, the amateur market is even higher than 95%.

It is very difficult to earn a decent living with photography in 2024 ...
 
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Doppler9000

Well-known member
As I’ve said before, most Ferrari or Lamborghini buyers aren’t professional race drivers.
The difference is that the cameras in question can be put to either amateur or professional use, depending on the photographer.

The cars you are speaking are road cars - the usage is “amateur” regardless of the driver’s profession.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Look, the definition of professional photographers for statistical purposes is not easy, I remember a figure of 100k-150k at one point including salaried and self-employed, above is employed. I would need to dig a bit, but essentially you have a lot of ILC cameras for recreational use and let's say you are conservative about the ILCs in circulation and use and say 5m and then you say 150k pros your are still only at 3%. 5M is super conservative as it would mean replacing cameras every 2.5y at 2m sales volume; clearly people hold on to them longer and there are most likely more directionally 10m cameras in use in the US for non pro work.
 
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Adammork

Member
Isn’t it quite irrelevant how many people are professionals or amateurs? What matters are the images that are created with the system.
It can matters when designing the system.
The only reason that I didn’t bought the Hasselblad X2D was the lack of a cable release - I asked in forums if there were a workaround, like the one that appeared with the X1D - and, very generally speaking, armatures suggested just to use the phone as a remote - and professionals agreed how stupid it was that this was omitted.

As a professional I often make between 1-2000 exposures a day - sometimes less sometimes quite a few more - in this professional workflow a phone as a remote is not an option, with dropped connections, battery use and uneasy bulk in your hand for 12 hours a day….

But maybe for many amateurs workflows, a phone will not be such a critical as a remote, for some maybe even cool - but would love to hear the explanation from HB why they omitted this on a “professional” camera?

So I think it can be importen two whom that is on top of the manufacturers mind, when they are designing a system.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
The professional (photography for revenue production of some amount) vs non professional ratio for our sales of Fuji GFX and Hasselblad X-based systems is in this range:

Fuji GFX: at least 50% - 60%, perhaps even higher, are professionals

Hasselblad X System: somewhere in the 35% - 45% range are professionals.

Saying 95% of owners are non professional for these systems is very inaccurate. The overall photopgraphy market is different, but the indvidual categories tell a more exact story.

To me, to our company, it doesn't matter. We have non professional clients who are as much or more dedicated to their craft than some professional clients are. And yes, a professional could be on set with talent on hand, with clients on set with them, big production, and when something goes wrong, they need help right away. Their needs are acute. For a non professional, they may have spent a considerable sum of money to shoot an amazing location somewhere on this planet, on a particular day and at a particular time, and if something gives them a problem, they also have an urgent need for that support.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
The professional (photography for revenue production of some amount) vs non professional ratio for our sales of Fuji GFX and Hasselblad X-based systems is in this range:

Fuji GFX: at least 50% - 60%, perhaps even higher, are professionals

Hasselblad X System: somewhere in the 35% - 45% range are professionals.

Saying 95% of owners are non professional for these systems is very inaccurate. The overall photopgraphy market is different, but the indvidual categories tell a more exact story.

To me, to our company, it doesn't matter. We have non professional clients who are as much or more dedicated to their craft than some professional clients are. And yes, a professional could be on set with talent on hand, with clients on set with them, big production, and when something goes wrong, they need help right away. Their needs are acute. For a non professional, they may have spent a considerable sum of money to shoot an amazing location somewhere on this planet, on a particular day and at a particular time, and if something gives them a problem, they also have an urgent need for that support.


Steve Hendrix/CI
Steve, don’t forget that you are long standing pro store with a more specific customer base focused on high end solutions. With top tier service etc. would you agree that the more basic brick and mortar and online photo stores have a different ratio?

I know some more “basic photo” stores here where you can walk in and get a CaNikon AND say Fuji, but not a Phase back or tech cam.

What I am saying is that your average of pro and amateur is in all likelihood quite different from the perspective of say a B&H selling them.

Given the price point through, it is clear that the ratio of amateurs to pros is likely naturally lower than for the overall ILC market, so the ratio may not be 95 to 5, but I don’t think it’s massively lower either because most working pros will also just use a Sony or Canon camera, at least when I go to weddings or when I see a press guy it is mostly a smaller sensor format camera, eg Canon 5D, Nikon Z9 etc

In the end the statement holds true that the amateurs are the main force behind camera demand.

Not that it matters - it’s just they don’t expose themselves to having to seek customers for something they love as a passion.
 
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lookbook

Well-known member
.. after the question of who buys an Alpa these days has been answered from a professional source.
We now also know which camera professional customers prefer.
Logical procedures lead to almost similar results!
 
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