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Yellow, the most difficult color to render ???

f6cvalkyrie

Well-known member
Hi, everybody ... now that spring is in the air, many beautiful flowers are waiting to be photographed ...
Also, yellow ones !!
But, I find yellow so difficult to shoot correctly and to process in CaptureOne, and in Lightroom before ...
I have had this problem both with files from my µ4/3 Olympus cameras and from my PhaseOne P30+ back

All other colors seem to process to pleasant images, but not yellow ...
Am I doing something wrong ?
Any tips or tricks ?

Stay safe,
Rafael
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
I don't know if this is related, but the choral pink of sunrise almost always comes out as yellow in digital cameras. Even if the red channel isn't blown out, which happens often, this is one place where the pipeline seems to break down. This bothers me so much that I usually go in and correct it in post.

Some strange color shifting seems endemic around yellow. I don't know what or why.
 

Darin Marcus

Well-known member
this one, for example,
I'm not happy with the hue of the yellow, and the crown leafs are oversaturated IMHO and show almost no detail ..
P1 645DF with Mamiya Macro MF 120/4

View attachment 193695
Thank you for posting this example. I think I recognize in it several issues that I have encountered myself, although in formats smaller than medium format (with which I have no experience).

A well known issue is that flowers with bright/intense colors (for example yellow, red) are particularly hard to photograph in strong/direct sunlight. Underexposing helps a bit, but I prefer to photograph them in diffuse light to better alleviate this issue.

Also, AWB in my experience tends to shift more intense yellows toward green/blue. So I compensate in post by warming up the photo and adjusting the Tint slider toward magenta. If this has a negative impact on the other parts of the photo, you can try to select the parts in yellow and adjust the WB only for the selection.

Finally, there is also the issue of color space. I shoot RAW (AdobeRGB selected for the embedded JPG) and process photos on an iMac with DCI-P3 screen. When I convert my photos to sRGB JPGs for web posting, bright/intense yellow colors (and some reds along with them) are particularly crushed and look oversaturated (overblown) and lacking in details. Unfortunately I don't have a standard solution for fixing this issue, other than by messing with the exposure/HSL sliders in Lightroom Classic, generating the sRGB file, evaluating the result and going back to the sliders until I get something as close to the desired result as possible.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
My experience is very similar to Darin's description above. The sRGB colour space really has a hard time with saturated yellows, reds and blues (and sometimes greens) In case you don't use the soft proofing version in Lightroom or use the sRGB output profile when viewing photos in C1 you get this textureless squashing of these saturated colours. For instance the red channel is almost fully blown out in the yellow flower of the photo you posted, so any texture differences that depend on different red values are lost.
My experience is that fixing this is easier in C1 than Lightroom but that's probably due to my skills and not inherent to the programs. But using the "soft proofing" option in Lightroom (and making sure your soft proofing towards the sRGB profile) will ensure you will spot any problems and allow you to process to a more pleasing outcome that still fits the sRGB colour space.

Also once in Photoshop the Shadow/Highlight command can restore some texture if parts of the exported photo are "just outside" the sRGB gamut, but when you've got a patch of solid colour this trick doesn't work anymore.

I've not found a golden bullet yet for this problem, so thanks for bringing it up and I will keep following this thread with great interest to learn more about it from other members.
 

dj may

Well-known member
It could be that yellow is overexposed. If possible try an exposure that is .5 and 1 stop less than what the light meter tells you.

Additionally, as you well know, any change in your image editing affects how different hues are perceived. This means all your editing will be iterative with multiple edits, just to get the perception of yellow the way that you want.

And finally, see if reducing Vibrance (or equivalent with other than Lightroom) helps.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
Here's a picture of a yellow flower in bright sunshine I took earlier this week on my Sony A700 (so a > 14 yrs old technology sensor) and struggled with to get a pleasing/detailed rendering of the yellow petals. I exposed +1/3 stop vs. the meter reading and according to raw digger none of the channels are blown out or blocked up.

However the default rendering in Lightroom checked with soft proofing saw all of the yellow flower outside the sRGB colour space, with several featureless yellow patches in the petals.

Here's the recipe that I used to process the shot:

Checked the white balance with a grey card, AWB was very close to the grey card reading, so I went with the camera AWB
Used lightroom to convert the image:
Set vibrance to -4
Set yellow saturation to -3
Set exposure to -0,5
Set clarity to +10
All other sliders zeroed

With those settings only very minor yellow parts were out of gamut (as per the lightroom soft proofing)

Exported to Photoshop and found the blue channel was blocked up on several parts of the yellow flower and the red channel was neither blocked nor blown.

Used the Shadow/highlight command and applied 4% shadow correction (tonal width 50% and 30 px radius), no highlight correction. I would have used some highlight correction in case the red channel would have blown out in the sRGB rendering). After this there were only a few minor areas left where the blue channel was blocked.

I then applied a few minor TOPAZ adjustments (clarity and detail) both on a separate layer but only used these layers with a 40% opacity

And voila, this is the end result, I don't know if you find the yellow rendering pleasing (that's a matter of taste) but the yellow is pretty close to what I perceived when taking he shot and there is texture visible in the entire petals.



I hope this recipe is useful for people who also struggle with the issue, but I also hope that people with more experience can give some tips to further improve my PP skills in this area.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
It could be that yellow is overexposed. If possible try an exposure that is .5 and 1 stop less than what the light meter tells you.

Additionally, as you well know, any change in your image editing affects how different hues are perceived. This means all your editing will be iterative with multiple edits, just to get the perception of yellow the way that you want.

And finally, see if reducing Vibrance (or equivalent with other than Lightroom) helps.
I agree reducing vibrance is a good trick and better than reducing saturation. Reducing vibrance basically reduces saturation of very saturated colours while doing much less on less saturated colours. Underexposing is indeed a good way to avoid the red channel blowing out (a very common problem with many digital sensors, especially the Sony ones) but as you can see in my example above the out of gamut problem was caused by the blue channel blocking up and then underexposing will only make the problem worse. So it really depends on the situation if overexposing or underexposing is the way to go and the in camera histograms are probably not accurate enough to tell it all. So if it is really important just bracket the shot and see which exposure finally leads to the most pleasing rendering.
 

f6cvalkyrie

Well-known member
And voila, this is the end result, I don't know if you find the yellow rendering pleasing (that's a matter of taste) but the yellow is pretty close to what I perceived when taking he shot and there is texture visible in the entire petals.
It is a pleasant rendering to my eye, Pieter ! However, I use C1 for editing, and have no 'vibrance' button ...
I tried to steer the red channel, that is saturated as you correctly stated, away from oversaturation, I could get less saturated red (very little change in the resulting yellow) but did not get any detail back in the yellow leaf ... that was lost since the exposure, I suppose ...

So, are we here in a casus that is not compatible with the traditional ETTR ?

stay safe,
Rafael
 

pegelli

Well-known member
So, are we here in a casus that is not compatible with the traditional ETTR ?
Well, if the red channel in your raw exposure is blown out you're not ETTR but EOTR (Exposure Over The Right) ;)

From this one jpg posted here it's hard to judge if it's a sRGB "out of gamut" problem or an overexposure of the red channel in your raw capture. Only way to find out is taking a look in RawDigger and if you don't have that I'd be happy to take a look for you on my computer. I can send you my email address and then you can send it to me via WeTransfer or a Dropbox link. Let me know if that would help you.

And I know C1 doesn't have a vibrance option, but at least version 10 (the latest I have) the colour wheels under the advanced colour editor you can set the colour changes (Hue/Saturation/Lightness) to only affect the high saturation of those colours and not affect the lower saturation. That's not exactly what the vibrance slider does but it's similar enough to make sure that less saturated colours are not impacted.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
If there's one set of colours that I have a problem with its bluebells - which are often rendered as pink or purple bells. The thing to realize also is that our perception of colour of these types of things maybe a bit biased due to UV/IR sensitivity.
 
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f6cvalkyrie

Well-known member
I went back to my yellow flower with my Olympus E-M1X camera (and a vintage Kilfitt Makro-Kilar 40/2.8) and shot 4 pics, one as indicated by the camera metering system (on ESP mode, which I usually use) and then 3 with each time 1/3 of a stop less exposure ... the sky was covered with a uniform cloud deck today ...
Upon importing in CaptureOne v22, it was clear that the 4 shots would be editable to good pictures ... no blown out red channel, and the colour yellow remained pleasant and conform to what I remembered from what I had seen just minutes earlier, and details visible on all the crown leafs ...

So, for me, the lesson learned is certainly to avoid shooting flowers with saturated colours in direct sunlight and eventually that the "old" sensor of the P30+ back is maybe more vulnerable to blowing out channels in difficult conditions ...

For information only, here's the developed picture of today ...

P5076562.jpg

Stay safe,
Rafael
 
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f6cvalkyrie

Well-known member
If there's one set of colours that I have a problem with its bluebells - which are often rendered as pink or purple bells. The thing to realize also is that our perception of colour of these types of things maybe a bit biased due to UV/IR sensitivity.
Graham, I'm lucky to live in an area with a reknown population of Bluebells ... I go shooting them every spring ... Bluebells come in a large variety of colours, there are even "albinos" in nature ...
Because of the variety, there is less such an impression of right or wrong colour ... but yes, also due to the light falling on the flowers being filtered through the greenish leafs of the tree canopy, the colours can be hard to get right ... again, the greycard proposed by Pieter may be of help ... I need to plunge into my former darkroom to find my greycard back, or maybe get a colour checker ...

Have fun, but stay safe,
Rafael

P4236175.jpg
 

bab

Active member
Ive done a lot of images with the color Yellow (overexposed blowned out yellow is easy to do with an (IRE 78-93). I have always found that your meter will overexpose yellow- underexposing the yellow gives you a chance to nail the right exposure.

Looking a the raw capture and at pixel level a slight adjustment in exposure can reveal how you cameras sensor handles the color, be it one or one and half stops under. Also the yellow can significantly reflect its surrounding colors such as the image posted above. Similarly shooting White like Dogwoods.
 
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