GH6

[Jorgen Udvang]

Interesting article at dpr about the dual gain technology of the GH6. This makes the camera much more competitive towards full frame alternatives than previous models (except the GH5S that produces even better low light video), and although the technology can also be applied on a larger sensor, it's a question how much light sensitivity and DR is actually needed by most photographers. This tech in combination with AI post processing software makes MFT increasingly competitive, at least from a tech point of view. The "full frame is better" mantra will of course live on, and the strongest argument against MFT seems to be "most photographers have moved on to full frame". However, when I see all the exceptionally good reviews the GH6 is getting, where the only real argument against it is DFD, I'm getting quite optimistic.

Many or most of those who have "moved on" will of course say that I'm wrong, and that full frame is inherently better. I don't care, and my clients most certainly don't. To me, the GH6 looks like the best tool for any of the photo and video work that I'm currently doing. For sports, there's Olympus/OM.

What is dual gain and how does it work?

The Panasonic GH6's 'DR Boost' mode is based on an interesting sensor design, but it's not the same as the 'dual gain' chips we've become accustomed to. We look at the differences and why you use gain at all.

www.dpreview.com

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Fun video:

 

[ptomsu]

It obviously is a very video centric camera, but in that area it seems to be one of its own!

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

It obviously is a very video centric camera, but in that area it seems to be one of its own!

It's a video centric camera, but it doesn't miss out on the most important stills features (except AF-C).

 

[ptomsu]

After looking through a number of videos - especially this one below - Panasonic obviously cared more about other aspects of the camera system (especially sensor improvement) than to add PDAF. And this IMHO is too bad - at least for me. If they had implemented these 25MP with whatever how much different variable gains for ISO/DR improvements then it should have been just a small step to include also PDAF.

It is especially a bad overall sign for coming future FF sensors as well (L-Mount - hence Panasonic/Lumix AND Leica SL cameras), because those might also ONLY get some kind of DFD technology and NO PDAF. Very sad, especially after so many years in development .....

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

After looking through a number of videos - especially this one below - Panasonic obviously cared more about other aspects of the camera system (especially sensor improvement) than to add PDAF. And this IMHO is too bad - at least for me. If they had implemented these 25MP with whatever how much different variable gains for ISO/DR improvements then it should have been just a small step to include also PDAF.

It is especially a bad overall sign for coming future FF sensors as well (L-Mount - hence Panasonic/Lumix AND Leica SL cameras), because those might also ONLY get some kind of DFD technology and NO PDAF. Very sad, especially after so many years in development .....

The representative from Panasonic says that one of the reasons for the GH6 not having phase detect AF is that the development of the GH6 and its sensor starte very long ago, before the GH5 was launched.

 

[ptomsu]

The representative from Panasonic says that one of the reasons for the GH6 not having phase detect AF is that the development of the GH6 and its sensor starte very long ago, before the GH5 was launched.

OK fine, but actually it was already well known 5 years ago that DFD could not reach the performance of PDAF - is in my eyes this is a lame excuse.

 

[ptomsu]

This size comparison between the GH6 and the OM-1 speaks for itself - everybody must know what they want and need but for m43 the GH6 size is just ridiculous!

GH6 vs GH5II and OM-1 size and spec comparison – 43 Rumors

www.43rumors.com

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

This size comparison between the GH6 and the OM-1 speaks for itself - everybody must know what they want and need but for m43 the GH6 size is just ridiculous!

GH6 vs GH5II and OM-1 size and spec comparison – 43 Rumors

www.43rumors.com

Olympus MFT has always been about size, Panasonic is about features, particularly video features. My GX8 is bigger than Sony A7C. That's fine with me. It's a good camera with loads of fn buttons and great ergonomics.

 

[iiiNelson]

OK fine, but actually it was already well known 5 years ago that DFD could not reach the performance of PDAF - is in my eyes this is a lame excuse.

I don’t think that’s an excuse. I think that’s the reality. The reality is that DFD is competitive for most photography. The areas that is falters in are continuous AF in video and specialized high speed photo. For portraits, weddings, lifestyle, street, etc. you likely wouldn’t be missing anything performance wise by choosing DFD. If wildlife or sports are your primary goal and you demand the best then get a Sony or Canon… and maybe a Z9 is an option now as well if you like the Z system lenses.

Outside of those flagship photo cameras, they all compromise somewhere.

 

[iiiNelson]

Interesting article at dpr about the dual gain technology of the GH6. This makes the camera much more competitive towards full frame alternatives than previous models (except the GH5S that produces even better low light video), and although the technology can also be applied on a larger sensor, it's a question how much light sensitivity and DR is actually needed by most photographers. This tech in combination with AI post processing software makes MFT increasingly competitive, at least from a tech point of view. The "full frame is better" mantra will of course live on, and the strongest argument against MFT seems to be "most photographers have moved on to full frame". However, when I see all the exceptionally good reviews the GH6 is getting, where the only real argument against it is DFD, I'm getting quite optimistic.

Many or most of those who have "moved on" will of course say that I'm wrong, and that full frame is inherently better. I don't care, and my clients most certainly don't. To me, the GH6 looks like the best tool for any of the photo and video work that I'm currently doing. For sports, there's Olympus/OM.

What is dual gain and how does it work?

The Panasonic GH6's 'DR Boost' mode is based on an interesting sensor design, but it's not the same as the 'dual gain' chips we've become accustomed to. We look at the differences and why you use gain at all.

www.dpreview.com

In most of the videos I’ve seen, the big problem becomes lowlight where artifacts are very visible at ISO 6400 or higher. The other problem is that the DR Boost having a low ISO value of 2000 means there is likely going to be increased noise compared to FF cameras and it’s fine. Micro 4/3 is alimony always going to loose the IQ battle to FF cameras of comparable tech but they’re supposed to. I think this camera just has a different use case and we can see that the S5 has improved IQ to the GH6 taking similar color profiles into account.

Nothing wrong with liking the GH6 and if it fits your. Requirements go for it. I do believe the price is going to be an issue to draw new users into the system because they can move to FF systems in this price bracket. It’s a natural thing for people to cross shop based on pricing but use case is the more important factor. There are different design considerations for wanting a GH6 thansay a do everything camera like the A7IV, R6, of S1/S5.

 

[ptomsu]

Olympus MFT has always been about size, Panasonic is about features, particularly video features. My GX8 is bigger than Sony A7C. That's fine with me. It's a good camera with loads of fn buttons and great ergonomics.

If you like the GH6 more and it fits your needs better then absolutely go for it or prefer it. This is all OK

Just for me whenever I see a camera like the GH5 or now especially GH6 I cannot come clear about thinking to carry that thing around for a whole day of whatever photography.

Also I held the Olympus 150-400 in hand myself and it is extrtxemely light. This is maybe the most appealing factor for me to want that m43 OM system again.

 

[k-hawinkler]

Thanks everybody for contributing that I have no longer any interest in the GH6.

 

[Knorp]

Amazing - Who could have thought the GH6 is apparently 'older' than the GH5 ?
Admittedly the GH-series have never been for me, so I'll stick to my G9 a little longer.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

While I understand the arguments against the GH6 from those who are mostly focused on stills, for people working seriously with video, the GH6 is a revolutionary camera, just like the GH5 was back in the day. As a one man video team, often operating multiple cameras simultaneously, I can't state loudly enough how useful many of the features are. Take one example:

I often use one or two stationary and and one hand-held camera. The challenge is that the stationary cameras are just that; stationary. With the GH6, I would be able to shoot 5.8K, 4:3 "open gate" video using all 5776 x 4336 pixels of the camera. When editing, I can move around in that large window, giving the impression of a camera that is not stationary. If the final file is going to be delivered in 1080 full HD (1920 x 1080), this gives me a lot of room to play with.

That same stationary camera will more often than not run continuously for much more than 30 minutes. That makes unlimited recording time without heating issues (I live in a tropical country) very important. And the list goes on and on and on...

There's one interesting fact that has been mostly ignored:
I saw a high ISO video comparison between the GH6 and the GH5S (don't remember where). Due to its 10MP sensor and dual gain sensor (as opposed to the GH6 dual readout), the GH5S show considerably less noise when shooting 4K video at high ISO. That's something to bear in mind for those shooting video after dark. Unfortunately, the GH5S is nearly as expensive as the GH6, and a camera with much greater limitations (10MP, no IBIS etc.). I wouldn't mind having one though...

Yes, cameras like the S5 offers better image quality than the GH6, at least at high ISO. An A1 or Z9 even more so. The GH6 is however a much cheaper camera (except compared to the S5) that offer much more advanced video features than any of those, features that make life easier for those who need them. I like it more and more.

 

[iiiNelson]

While I understand the arguments against the GH6 from those who are mostly focused on stills, for people working seriously with video, the GH6 is a revolutionary camera, just like the GH5 was back in the day. As a one man video team, often operating multiple cameras simultaneously, I can't state loudly enough how useful many of the features are. Take one example:

I often use one or two stationary and and one hand-held camera. The challenge is that the stationary cameras are just that; stationary. With the GH6, I would be able to shoot 5.8K, 4:3 "open gate" video using all 5776 x 4336 pixels of the camera. When editing, I can move around in that large window, giving the impression of a camera that is not stationary. If the final file is going to be delivered in 1080 full HD (1920 x 1080), this gives me a lot of room to play with.

That same stationary camera will more often than not run continuously for much more than 30 minutes. That makes unlimited recording time without heating issues (I live in a tropical country) very important. And the list goes on and on and on...

There's one interesting fact that has been mostly ignored:
I saw a high ISO video comparison between the GH6 and the GH5S (don't remember where). Due to its 10MP sensor and dual gain sensor (as opposed to the GH6 dual readout), the GH5S show considerably less noise when shooting 4K video at high ISO. That's something to bear in mind for those shooting video after dark. Unfortunately, the GH5S is nearly as expensive as the GH6, and a camera with much greater limitations (10MP, no IBIS etc.). I wouldn't mind having one though...

Yes, cameras like the S5 offers better image quality than the GH6, at least at high ISO. An A1 or Z9 even more so. The GH6 is however a much cheaper camera (except compared to the S5) that offer much more advanced video features than any of those, features that make life easier for those who need them. I like it more and more.

Depending on the features that you need the A1 and Z9 offer as many if not more video features as the GH6 but they are more than 2x the price as well.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Depending on the features that you need the A1 and Z9 offer as many if not more video features as the GH6 but they are more than 2x the price as well.

The A1 is nearly 3x the price. I can buy 2 GH6 bodies and a couple of good lenses for the cost of the A1. Also, since I live and work in a tropical climate, the A1 will overheat at high frame rates like 4K/120 (29 minutes at room temperature according to dpr. It's between 30 and 40 degrees Celsius here.). Then there's the excellent LCD that can be folded in all possible directions, much faster transfer rates that makes ProRes possible, 4 channel audio (Think Røde Wireless Go II for two talking subjects plus a stereo mic for ambient sound on camera) etc. etc. etc.

The A1 is an excellent camera, but with what has happened since it was launched a year ago, it's way too expensive. To me, the GH6 is simply a much more practical camera. It's like a Mercedes Limo vs. a rugged hybrid Toyota LandCruiser.

The traditional downsides of Panasonic MFT cameras are AF and high ISO. But I use much older Panasonic cameras in pitch dark all the time. Here's a fresh video about the AF of the GH6:

The disadvantages of MFT are way overblown by YouTube heroes. There are lots of professional users who create excellent results with these cameras on a daily basis.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Here's the noise comparison between the GH5S and the GH6, starting at 8:36. see also colour improvements at 8:18:

 

[iiiNelson]

The A1 is nearly 3x the price. I can buy 2 GH6 bodies and a couple of good lenses for the cost of the A1. Also, since I live and work in a tropical climate, the A1 will overheat at high frame rates like 4K/120 (29 minutes at room temperature according to dpr. It's between 30 and 40 degrees Celsius here.). Then there's the excellent LCD that can be folded in all possible directions, much faster transfer rates that makes ProRes possible, 4 channel audio (Think Røde Wireless Go II for two talking subjects plus a stereo mic for ambient sound on camera) etc. etc. etc.

The A1 is an excellent camera, but with what has happened since it was launched a year ago, it's way too expensive. To me, the GH6 is simply a much more practical camera. It's like a Mercedes Limo vs. a rugged hybrid Toyota LandCruiser.

The traditional downsides of Panasonic MFT cameras are AF and high ISO. But I use much older Panasonic cameras in pitch dark all the time. Here's a fresh video about the AF of the GH6:

The disadvantages of MFT are way overblown by YouTube heroes. There are lots of professional users who create excellent results with these cameras on a daily basis.

You’re assuming I’m listening to YouTube and aren’t going on first hand experience with Micro 4/3 cameras. I take reviews of others into account but measure them with my own use cases when I get personal hands-on time.

The A1 isn’t too expensive for what it is and the overheating is something that’s overblown. No one is shooting long form high frame rate video for one. Many people never turn on high temperature settings and run to the internet to complain about cameras overheating. You also get oversampled 8.6K with the A1 along with oversampled 4.2k to go along with all the external RAW options. The reality is that with all of these hybrid cameras an external recorder is needed to maximize video performance. This also minimizes or completely eliminates the risk to overheating.

Personally I hate fully articulating screens and vastly prefer tilting designs as I’m generally behind the camera but I understand this is a subjective choice. Cameras with fully articulating screens immediately move towards the bottom of the list for me all things considered nearly equally. The inclusion of ProRes is nice and it’s my preferred codec to edit, however, many modern computers (specifically Apple computers) have additional built in hardware decoding so shooting h.265 in near real-time is becoming less of an issue with modern computing.

So all that said… there’s nothing wrong with the GH6. I’m sure it’s great for many people (maybe even myself included) but there are clearly flaws that make it more of a specialized tool which is a part of the design of the camera. The A1 is far more practical for those with larger budgets. It literally has no weaknesses that are not completely subjective… and the main one that anyone is going to point to is always going to be price or whether or not they like using Sony cameras. Both of these things are fair points but have no bearing on the pure ability of the product itself. It literally can do everything from having the highest tested DR of any hybrid camera, generally regarded as the best AF in the industry today, has excellent video options, integration into a vast ecosystem that goes from entry level system cameras to some of the highest pro level cinema cameras. In my opinion this is the most overlooked part of investing in the Sony system since they went all in on mirrorless. There’s an upgrade path for every kind of user from the teenager learning photo/video in school, to the Hollywood DP, to the AP photojournalist, to the advanced amateur/hobbyist, etc. You now see Canon and others adopting and consolidating their multitude of mounts into a unified system. There’s only a matter of time until the EOS EF-M goes away and the EF is essentially dead as far as Canon is concerned. Nikon might bounce back if/when their Z9 abilities trickle into the lower end models… assuming the supply chain issues don’t adversely affect the company.

This isn’t to say anything negative about the GH6 again. It’s a great camera but I’m not going to act like it’s on the same level as FF flagships. It’s not. The price differences reflect this and I’m sure Panasonic knows it because they still say (within their interviews) that their FF cameras have better IQ than the GH6… and they’re all based on a 5+ year old Sony IMX410 sensor or the TowerJazz 50mp sensor. The most cutting edge Micro 4/3 sensors are just now beginning to approach this level of performance which is impressive on one hand but also should be a reminder that physics can’t be fully cheated no matter what. I imagine we will see a dual gain architecture in the next S1H to maybe improve IQ and lowlight noise levels… especially if the rumors are true and they move to a higher resolution 8K sensor.

I’m interested to see what you create with the GH6 when incorporated into your kit. I considered it briefly but I honestly feel I’d be better served by a A7SIII/FX3 in this category… or maybe even the A9III when it gets released.

 

[k-hawinkler]

You’re assuming I’m listening to YouTube and aren’t going on experience.

The A1 isn’t too expensive for what it is and the overheating is something that’s overblown. No one is shooting long form high frame rate video for one. Many people never turn in high temperature settings and run to the internet to complain about cameras overheating. You also get oversampled 8.6K with the A1 along with oversampled 4.2k togo along with all the external RAW options. The reality is that with all of these hybrid cameras an external recorder is needed to maximize performance and this also minimizes or completely eliminates the risk to overheating.

Personally I hate fully articulating screens and vastly prefer tilting designs as I’m generally behind the camera but I understand this is a subjective choice. Cameras with fully articulating screens immediately move to the bottom of the list for me all things considered nearly equal. The inclusion of ProRes is nice and it’s my preferred codec to edit, however, many modern computers (specifically Apple computers) have additional built in hardware decoding so shooting h.265 in near real-time is becoming less of an issue with modern computing.

So all that said… nothing wrong with the GH6. I’m sure it’s great for many people but there are clearly flaws that make it more of a specialized tool which is apart of the design of the camera. The A1 is far more practical for those with larger budgets. It literally has no weaknesses… and the one that anyone is going to point to is always going to be price. It literally can do everything from having the highest tested DR of any hybrid camera, generally regarded as the best AF in the industry today, excellent video options, integration into a vast ecosystem that goes from entry level system cameras to the highest pro level cinema cameras. In my opinion this is the most overlooked part of investing in the Sony system since they went all in on mirrorless. There’s an upgrade path for every kind of user from the teenager learning photo/video in school, to the Hollywood DP, to the AP photojournalist, to the advanced amateur/hobbyist, etc.

This isn’t to say anything negative about the GH6 again. It’s a great camera but I’m not going to act like it’s on the same level as FF flagships. It’s not. The price differences reflect this and I’m sure Panasonic knows it because they still say their FF cameras have improved IQ… and they’re all based on a 5+ year old Sony IMX410 sensor. The most cutting edge Micro 4/3 sensors are just now beginning to approach this level of performance which is impressive on one hand but also should be a reminder that physics can’t be fully cheated no matter what.

I’m interested to see what you creat with the GH6 when incorporated into your kit. I considered it briefly but I honestly feel I’d be better served by a A7SIII/FX3 in this category.

Thank you very much Tre for a fair and balanced assessment of the GH6 and A1.
I am sure both are great cameras.
For my particular photographic interests the Sony A1 is the best fit and worth every penny I paid for it.
Also since the first A7 and A7R (I still use mine occasionally) cameras Sony has made tremendous efforts to create better lenses by including multiple linear motors to move lens elements fast, quietly and accurately for efficient and extremely precise focusing. That’s in addition to improved optical elements. Those linear motors are used in their latest generations of GM lenses. My favorite being the FE 50/1.2 GM, an incredible performer on the A1.

Thanks again for your balanced input to this thread.